equipment for DSD decoding

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n3obl

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Can i use a scanner with a discriminator output. Do i need extra hardware or does this go into a soundcard. I have a computer that i have a dual boot xp/ubuntu system on it and was going to try this but just looking for some more info before i get started. Got a few business mototrbo systems would like to try and monitor.

Frank
 

mtindor

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Can i use a scanner with a discriminator output. Do i need extra hardware or does this go into a soundcard. I have a computer that i have a dual boot xp/ubuntu system on it and was going to try this but just looking for some more info before i get started. Got a few business mototrbo systems would like to try and monitor.

Frank

Frank,

A discriminator tap is required... as long as you've got access to discriminator audio, you're good to go.

If you're using Ubuntu, you should use 10.04 (definitely not anything newer). This is because the way audio is handled is different in Ubuntu > 10.04. Given the fact that it is somewhat tedious to figure out DSD to begin with [not to mention getting things downloaded/compiled], it makes sense to not complicate things by running > 10.04.

I have found my Inspiron 1525 laptop built-in audio does decode, but I use an SB Live 24-bit USB. I've also used a $1.99 USB sound device (like you might order on Ebay from Hong Kong). I am sure some audio devices are better than others. You've got to have audio that supports a high enough sample rate I believe.

With my setup, I just recently have been successful at listening to a local MotoTRBO business repeater. P25 performance is subpar in my case. Even the MotoTRBO decoding doesn't sound very good. It's probably my hardware.

But, in the end I think that even with minimal hardware you can get some results.

I find that every MotoTRBO that I try to monitor requires the -xr -fr options (specifically the option to invert something or another).

I think my usual commandline is:

dsd -xr -fr -i /dev/audio1 -o /dev/audio -w crap.wav

If your input and output device are the same audio, and that audio is accessible via /dev/audio, you don't have to use the -i and -o switches. and -w is only needed if you want to output the decoded audio into a wav file.

Minimally a simple "dsd" or "dsd -xr -fr" might do the trick to see if things are working.

Mike
 

mtindor

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PS: I'm using a Ubuntu install on a Flash drive [with persistence] -- details at Boot and run Linux from a USB flash memory stick | USB Pen Drive Linux . The persistence option allows me to download/save things on the flash drive. Without following the persistence tutorial, you won't have persistence on the flash drive and every time you boot up you'll have to download / compile DSD.

I know you didn't mention using a flash drive, but I tell you it is very handy. And on pendrivelinux.com there is all the information you need to do a Ubuntu 10.04 install with persistence. Works very well for me. I use a 4 GB flash drive.

mike
 

mtindor

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By the way, Frank, below is a link to some audio I monitored from a MotoTRBO system in another county [not in PA]. I purposefully won't say what agency it was. Signal strength was about 4 bars.

http://www.ovscan.com/audio_samples/ (only contains one file at present)
http://www.ovscan.com/audio_samples/TRBO1.wav

I'm not sure if it is possible to decode / have the audio sound any better than that with a MotoTRBO decode.

Mike
 

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I'm not sure if it is possible to decode / have the audio sound any better than that with a MotoTRBO decode.

My university just recently went full MotoTRBO, so I've had a lot of opportunities to hear audio quality through the subscriber radios, and it honestly doesn't sound much better than that (with the exception of the choppiness). In fact I've been consistently surprised by just how BAD it sounds compared to IMBE P25 CAI. YMMV though.

I'm really interested in getting DSD running to monitor this TRBO system, but I have no Linux experience. I'd like to try the boot from flash drive option as I only have one computer. Does anyone know of a comprehensive tutorial explaining how to set up and boot Linux from a flash drive (I will read the Ubuntu one above), and how to install, compile and run DSD? Sorry to thread hijack. :)

Thanks!
 
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mtindor

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My university just recently went full MotoTRBO, so I've had a lot of opportunities to hear audio quality through the subscriber radios, and it honestly doesn't sound much better than that (with the exception of the choppiness). In fact I've been consistently surprised by just how BAD it sounds compared to IMBE P25 CAI. :) YMMV though.

Thanks for that info. It's nice to know. I had been pondering ways that i might potentially increase the audio quality on my end such as better hardware [in case my sound card just doesn't have what it takes to give the correct sampling rate], cleaner tap audio [if it was indeed unclean to begin with]. This saves me a lot of potential work and any additional expense trying to improve what may not be improved upon apart from having correct audio levels and a strong signal.

At least this way I know that what I'm using is probably pretty close to being as good as it is going to get. I would have expected the audio to sound significantly better to those users on such a system when they are actually using the radios for receive. I guess the mere fact that it's such a narrow bandwidth is going to mean it isn't going to sound as good as non-narrowband analog ;)

I'm really interested in getting DSD running to monitor this TRBO system, but I have no Linux experience. I'd like to try the boot from flash drive option as I only have one computer. Does anyone know of a comprehensive tutorial explaining how to set up and boot Linux from a flash drive (I will read the Ubuntu one above), and how to install, compile and run DSD? Sorry to thread hijack. :)

Thanks!

There are some prerequisites:

1. Your computer must be able to boot from the flash drive. Not all computers will boot from flash.
2. Your built-in or internal audio card [or your USB external audio device] must be adequately supported in Linux.
3. You need to have at least a 2 GB flash drive (mine is 4 GB)
4. You need to have discriminator audio available from your scanner / receiver to feed into the line-in (preferably) or mic-in on your audio card.

If you think your computer meets the criteria, then read this:

Put Ubuntu on Flash Drive using Windows | USB Pen Drive Linux

(note: I don't particular endorse / prefer Ubuntu. It just so happens that there are decent instructions for installing Ubuntu on a flash drive with the persistence option available. So I went with that.)

a. Download the Ubuntu 10.04 torrent specifically. you don't want anything newer
b. follow the directions from running the Universal installer.

When you run the Universal installer you'll have to select what version of Ubuntu you are installing, tell the installer where to find the ISO that you downloaded via your torrent software, and tell it to use the persistence feature. You'll have to specify a size for it. I think I specified 3 GB.

Anyway, if you have never used Linux, getting through the above tasks is a bigger hurdle than figuring out how to get DSD running.

One [big] step at a time. get all of that done and I'm sure people will be able to help you with the DSD side of things.

If you are only going to monitor P25, I'd say none of this is worth your effort -- lot easier to just use a digital scanner. If you are going to try and use DSD to receive MotoTRBO, Provoice or the other things that DSD supports and you have access to a strong signal from systems using one of those, then DSD can be fun.

Mike
 

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Hey thanks again for the help everyone. I ended up installing ubuntu 10.04 under Windows 7 through the VMWare Player as a virtual machine.

Unfortunately despite playing with the input levels I'm not really getting any good decodes. I'm trying to decode MotoTRBO (DMR). I tried listening to P25 as a control and would get about 5 minutes of noise and then one perfect 15 second long clear understandable decode, and then more minutes of noise. Results were even poorer with DMR, with no good decodes at all.

I'm guessing I'm just SOL with the limitations of the VM install and the sound card on my laptop "ES1371 [AudioPCI-97]" / "Realtek high definition audio," but if anyone had any further advice I'd be happy to give it a shot. Decode quality of the DMR audio signal should be VERY good, as the repeaters are close by.
 

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Hey thanks again for the help everyone. I ended up installing ubuntu 10.04 under Windows 7 through the VMWare Player as a virtual machine.

Unfortunately despite playing with the input levels I'm not really getting any good decodes. I'm trying to decode MotoTRBO (DMR). I tried listening to P25 as a control and would get about 5 minutes of noise and then one perfect 15 second long clear understandable decode, and then more minutes of noise. Results were even poorer with DMR, with no good decodes at all.

I'm guessing I'm just SOL with the limitations of the VM install and the sound card on my laptop "ES1371 [AudioPCI-97]" / "Realtek high definition audio," but if anyone had any further advice I'd be happy to give it a shot. Decode quality of the DMR audio signal should be VERY good, as the repeaters are close by.

I'm still using DSD on my Dell 1525. I had equally bad performance feeding discriminator audio into the ES1371 mic input vs feeding it into the mic input of a SB Live 24-bit external USB mic input. The reason I used mic input on the ES1371 is because that's all I had. The reason i used mic input on the SB Live 24-bit is because I knew the line-in levels were extremely low and nonadjustable in linux.

However, as a last ditch test I decided to switch from mic-in on the SB Live 24-bit external to the line-in. Sure enough, it was only showing INLVL 4%, BUT the decodes were significantly better. not perfect by any means. I question whether anyone is really getting 100% decodes on even strong signals.... but perhaps they are. At any rate, a buddy of mine explained a few reasons why the line input is better. It doesn't just have to do with the audio levels. I wish I could remember exactly the reasoning he gave, but he was right.

So, assuming your tap is of sufficient quality, then I would say to try your best to figure out a way to do line-in on your card. In fact, I will mess with things further tomorrow on my laptop and will see if there is any way to get line-in functional on the laptop.

Oh, another FYI -- and you're going to like this...

The ES1371, at least on my laptop, only has one mic input adjustment slider. If I use 'mic-in', then it also mixes the front jack mic-in with the built-in microphone audio. And there is no way to turn off / turn down the microphone audio for the internal microphone in linux.

If you have an internal microphone on your laptop, you're probably experiencing hte same problems. And you likely aren't finding anyway to disalbe it in Linux. However, I found a way to disable it. Dont' ask my why it works.

When in Windows, go in and find the internal microphone input. DISABLE it. So you'll have internal micrphone DISABLED and you'll have the front jack mic-in showing "plugged in" (i'm runningg vista, it may say something different in Win7).

Anyway, after disabling the internal microphone within Windows and hten booting up to Linux, I started to get some decoding and could decode things that I didn't have a chance of decoding when it was mixing the two mic input audio sources. It didn't work as well as LINE-IN on the SB worked, but it worked better than not disabling the internal mic in Windows before booting to Linux.

So you might want to give that a try.

After I do some more in depth testing of the built-in sound on the Dell tomorrow, I'll let you know what i find out.

But I suspect you'll never get as good a decode rate using the mic-in as you would using line-in.

I think you are also dealing with additional difficulties having employed VMWare Player to run your linux instance rather than running Linux as the core OS.

Mike
 

mtindor

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In addition to my post above, also try the -xr -fr switches in DSD. Some MotoTRBO systems require the inverted bits.

I found that on systems where I need to run -xr but forget to do so, things that aren't audio at all start being played as audio - and it gets confusing because it just sounds like horrible, unintelligible audio dcode. But then, on those systems that require it, if I use the -xr switch I end up seeing that there is no audio at all -- and then when actual audio occurs on the audio stream, it detects it and I can make it out for the most part.

To explain further - one system I monitor is a TRBO repeater that is nearly always on during hte day [the mobiles have GPS units and the repeater is constantly on... idle mostly, but with bits of GPS data and then the occasional audio). Well, on that system, if I dont run -xr, I constantly hear what sounds like horrible, unintelligible audio. When I run dsd with the -xr switch, I then see that it's predominantly idle iwth the occasional GPS data --- and then I only hear audio when actual audio is being sent on the repeater. Follow what I'm saying? Bottom line, make sure you try it regular and with the -xr switch.

Mike
 

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A relative of Linda's recently tried running DSD in a VirtualBox window on a pretty strong PC

The host was WinXP - SP3 and the guest was ubuntu 10.04

A comparison was made to results running DSD from an ubuntu 10.04 USB thumb drive on an Acer Aspire One Netbook.

The discriminator signal was from a tapped handheld scanner with 1M and 10 uF in series for isolation.

The input device for both systems was identical: an audio USB adapter.

Input level per DSD was observed to be 3% (for both systems).

Audio output was thru the individual internal onboard chip set.

Both systems decoded a local P25 simulcast system, but audio from the Linux Netbook sometimes showed zero error bars and was consistently intelligible, while the PC VBox implementation frequently provided only garbled audio and humongous error bar strings.

To rule out the internal sound card variable, the heavyweight PC was subsequently booted from the ubuntu thumb drive, and decoding success was observed to be at least equal to the Netbook's.

Btw, with DSD sound quality at -u8 for all tests, the Netbook occasionally would peak at 100% processor use, whereas the PC (even under the VBox load) never exceeded 25%

Hope this is helpful.

-rb-
 

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I, too, found that VMware's audio handling was sub-par for what we are trying to do. I have yet to try it with 2 different audio cards to see if it is something to do with full duplex.

From what i have seen whenever the DSD program is trying to decode the VMWare screen lags badly and the CPU usage gets very erratic. After about 15 seconds of straight decode the screen will suddenly rapidly update and the decoded audio will be perfect. No problem with computer horsepower, and when running native linux on it the decodes are always +95% decode rate. With VMWare it is less than 10% id say, but that 10% is always flawless.

Not sure if this is a problem that can be addressed with the VMWare company or what but for now, id say trying it in virtual is not going to work. Might try the windows version of virtualization to see if it helps.
 
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