ESN or Serial Number over the air?

[station32]

I was not sure where to post this but on a motorola type II smartzone and an APCO-25 system does the trunked system at all read the ESN or serial number of the radio and does it get transmited over the air at all. Me and my budy were talking about it an he seams to think it does and i dont think it does. Can anyone clear this up for me?
Thanks in advance,
Joe

 

[bezking]

I don't know that the actual serial number or ESN is sent over the air. What is transmitted is the radio's ID number (optionally including the Soft ID), which is programmed into the radio by the system admin.

 

[robertpearsall]

I beleve it trasmitts the serial number that is how the system knows if the radio belongs on the system of not.

 

[station32]

Robert would it not use the soft ID. That is why I am asking i am not sure.

 

[bezking]

It uses the Radio ID. The Soft ID feature allows you to define a short string of text to identify yourself - it's very very rarely used outside the Ham community; the only time it's been used in public safety was on the old LAPD conventional system.

 

[station32]

So your saying it uses the id that is programed using the cps when you program the system in. Or does it use the number specific to the radio like an ESN.

 

[b7spectra]

On certain types of LTR systems, the ESN is transmitted. I know that in my County, one city has such an LTR system in use and unless your ESN is "on the list", you won't get on the air.

 

[Astro25]

The state 9600bps P25 system here doesn't pull ESNs, anyways. LTR trunking that validates via ESN is typically called PassPort as standard LTR just requires the radio to transmit a valid ID code - but a lot of the newer digital trunking systems, including NEXEDGE, give you the option to validate radios on an ESN basis.

 

[bezking]

So your saying it uses the id that is programed using the cps when you program the system in. Or does it use the number specific to the radio like an ESN.

On an APCO-25 TRS I'm pretty sure that is the case.

 

[n3obl]

Actually there is a new feature in the XTS and XTL lines called P25 radio authenication. It uses the long ESN number you see in the service menu to additionally authenicate the radio. However i think the p25 system also has to be running the latest version and im not sure if motorola fully implemented it.

Frank

 

[scannerdude12]

I heard from our Motorola ST that ESN authentication is supported in 7.9 as an add on option, God only knows how much it would cost. I'm pretty sure that it would reside in a zone level server somewhere, probably UCM database. But, that would make adding radios in UCM a real pain.

 

[kb0uxv]

Correct, 7.9 does add the option to do radio authentication. It is Motorola's solution to the problem of hobbiests putting illegal radios on P25 systems and duplicating IDs. This new feature requires every radio to be flashed. Each radio is then loaded with a KVL4000. So radios that affiliate will need the proper key plus the valid RID. This feature, combined with hardware system keys, should solve alot of problems. One potential problem is if you use this feature on a Motorola 7.9+ system, it may lock it down to Motorola radios only. Not sure if other vendors have this feature available in their subsriber units.

 

[Forts]

MotoTRBO Connect Plus systems also use the ESN of the radio for authentication.

 

[Station_Master]

I was not sure where to post this but on a motorola type II smartzone and an APCO-25 system does the trunked system at all read the ESN or serial number of the radio and does it get transmited over the air at all. Me and my budy were talking about it an he seams to think it does and i dont think it does. Can anyone clear this up for me?
Thanks in advance,
Joe

Starting with Smartzone 7.8, the system "has" the ability to verify the Radio ID and serial number so that you can keep cloned radio's off the system. It is an option either on/off with 7.9 where the radios hardwired serial number is transmittited along with the assigned/programmed radio id, all to further eliminate the growing problem of radio cloning. the "Alias" of the radio name or unit number is not transmitted it is converted in the database for the call logs or console operators, it will only appear on the radios display if you have the option enable and the corresponding ID/Alias table setup

 

[gesucks]

Starting with Smartzone 7.8, the system "has" the ability to verify the Radio ID and serial number so that you can keep cloned radio's off the system. It is an option either on/off with 7.9 where the radios hardwired serial number is transmittited along with the assigned/programmed radio id, all to further eliminate the growing problem of radio cloning. the "Alias" of the radio name or unit number is not transmitted it is converted in the database for the call logs or console operators, it will only appear on the radios display if you have the option enable and the corresponding ID/Alias table setup

This is 100 % untrue. This is no where in the P25 standard nor is it a Motorola propritary feature. *

Starting with ASTRO 7.8, it now suports P25 radio authenication. This has nothing to do with the serial number or ESN. *The radio authentication is accopmlished with a AES-128 key (show as AES-GCM) that is synced with the radio ID. This is a random key that is then loaded in to the authentication server for the system. *When a radio goes to register on the system, it does so as normal, the system then chalenges the radio for the authentication key. *If it matchs what has been loaded in the server it gets on, if not it does not. * No 2 IDs can have the same key in the server, and since each key is a random key, you can not load the same key in 2 radios.

 

[Seadoo]

gesucks is correct, but is a feature that is rarely used due to expense of having to flash all the subscriber units. The much easier approach is to turn off all non-used talkgroups, turn off all ID's except for the radio ID"s that are in use. then have the system redflag the unauthorized radio id's and send the inhibit command. An extra step would also be to set up your system to only allow auto affilliation, this way a radio must be forced to affilliate for it to lock onto the control channel. If the radio is set with the cps to affilliate on ptt, it will receive the NO COMMS message until it affilliates with the system. The last feature was added to our system when we had to reband as it was not available before the reband.

 

[gesucks]

An extra step would also be to set up your system to only allow auto affilliation, this way a radio must be forced to affilliate for it to lock onto the control channel. If the radio is set with the cps to affilliate on ptt, it will receive the NO COMMS message until it affilliates with the system. The last feature was added to our system when we had to reband as it was not available before the reband.

This above is also 100% untrue. Per TIA P25 standard, all P25 system are auto affilliation (really auto register). There is currently no P25 radio or system on the market that supports a radio not registering when you turn them on or go to the system. As a matter of fact it is called out and a required test point in the P25 CAP testing process.

 

[greenthumb]

There is currently no P25 radio or system on the market that supports a radio not registering when you turn them on or go to the system.

The above is 100% untrue. All current Harris, M/A-COM and Tyco Electronics portable and mobile radios with P25 trunking capability support the ability to turn registration off, thus allowing the radio to be used in a scanner-type mode of operation. The radio will, however, register once the PTT is pressed to initiate a call.

Just because a test is performed in the CAP doesn't mean that the manufacturer of the radio can't allow the programmer or system administrator to enable or disable the feature.

 

[gesucks]

Just because a test is performed in the CAP doesn't mean that the manufacturer of the radio can't allow the programmer or system administrator to enable or disable the feature.

Actually this has everything to do with the CAP process.

Under current TIA-102.AABD-A Section 6.4 Full registraion it states:
A SU shall perform full registration when:
a. it is switched on; or
b. it automatically or manually selects a new Registration Area in the same or different WACN; or
c. it is forced to register by the RFSS.
The SU may be forced to register by the FNE when an optional registration time out occurs or in the case of the FNE losing track of SUID to WUID mapping. An SU that fails to respond properly to a forced registration should be considered as no longer registered and the WUID no longer valid. d. it is a roaming SU which is leaving an isolated site for another site.

Since this is a mandatory section of the standard, it must be followed and the manufacture does not have the option of disabling it. If what you say is true about the Harris products and they do in fact work as described, I would be willing to bet you will either see that feature removed in the next year or you will no longer see any Harris products with CAP certification. My guess is that feature will be goon soon