FCC MANDATE 2013 Digital P25 ?

[ASTRO2001]

You know for a while there are departments out there saying we have to go P25 digital by this date they is a wrong anwser web site below tells all here is one thing in this mandate

Myth #1: Licensees must implement digital equipment. One common misconception
is that narrowbanding is a requirement to “go digital.” The FCC’s narrowbanding
rules do not dictate that any particular type of equipment modulation be
employed. You may continue to operate analog equipment, even after the January
1, 2013 deadline, provided that your equipment meets the FCC’s narrowbanding
(12.5 kHz) standards. However, you may want to use the FCC’s narrowbanding
requirement as an opportunity to upgrade to digital technology, which is less susceptible
to adjacent-channel interference and offers capabilities not available on
analog systems.

So you can use analog still who and people like chiefs and big brass are pushing this Digital P25 stuff way to far yea it nice be digital but there is NO mandate to switch to P25 digital like Milwaukee, Wisconsin and other department across this land they are saying we have to go digital by this date NO they are just saying your radio's must be Narrowband by January 1, 2013


http://www.imsasafety.org/PDFs/Narrowbanding V2 R2.pdf

 

[GlacierClipper]

Good information.

 

[kb2crk]

Narrow band is the only requirement but some shady dealers are feeding a line to their buyers. there was a requirement for digital capable for interoperability if funded through certain government programs or grants but that has been lifted also as the date gets closer.

 

[W8RMH]

I wonder what the commissions are like as a Motorola or Harris sales rep these days?
(Minus the kick-backs of course).

 

[SteveC0625]

I do know that certain federal grants require the purchase of P25 capable equipment, even if it is destined to be used in an analog, narrowband system. Kind of ridiculous, IMHO, especially when analog gear is so much less expensive.

 

[rdale]

The main federal radio grant, PSIC, has no requirement.

 

[SteveC0625]

The main federal radio grant, PSIC, has no requirement.

Whichever grant our county got from Homeland Security supposedly has the P25 capable hardware requirement. At least, that is what the powers that be told me a couple of months ago.

Last I knew, they were wrangling with how to make the grant buy enough base station units to allow the whole county to go NB in time.

 

[cdknapp]

I have seen and heard a number of dealers and manufactures telling end users that to comply with FCC Part 90 (as of 01/01/2013), they MUST go to digital. This is absolute bull; they are just trying to sell more digital equipment. And to be honest (which some of these are NOT), many of the people who make these decisions just don’t know any different, they just follow what the ‘professionals’ are telling them. Like many things in emergency services, a lot of the decision makers don’t really know that much about a lot of the things involved for the day-to-day stuff involved. And as these dealers are selling systems that are proprietary, one an agency/system are sold these bills of goods, they are locked in.
Quite frankly, our law enforcement went to a P25 system over a year ago. Personally, I am not at all impressed; sound quality, lag times, etc. etc. in my opinion, are officer safety issues. I just hope the lesions learned from this make enough sense to everyone that it never placed into service for the fire service. Yes, I am an old dog, but can still learn new tricks and embrace technology, but there are a lot of problems with most of these digital systems (including security concerns) that I just don’t feel that putting our people’s safety any more put on the line is justification for many money…. And it’s BIG money.
And yes Steve, it is me, and there is a LOT more to that story here that you might not know!
PM me sometime and I will fill you in!!

 

[rdale]

Whichever grant our county got from Homeland Security supposedly has the P25 capable hardware requirement. At least, that is what the powers that be told me a couple of months ago.

Some states have added that, and since the state is the passthrough it's just tough luck for everyone inside of it. But at least the main ones from FEMA say nothing about P25, and I'd be shocked if any of them do actually. They do require "interoperability" but that just means you need to have the TAC/CALL channels programmed in for whatever band you're on.

 

[W2NJS]

The mid-term answer to the problem of being lied to by a sales agent is to have the system designed and specified by a consulting engineer. Costs more but provides a measure of protection to the agency, and also might just result in better pricing when the bids come in. Going it alone when you have absolutely no technical competence is plain foolish.

 

[AK9R]

The one thing to watch out for when dealing with a consulting engineer is that you don't want the consultant writing a specification so tight that only one vendor can meet it. We see this all the time in the construction business with various technology systems such as security or HVAC control. While it makes the bidding process appear fair, it's really not.

 

[SteveC0625]

The mid-term answer to the problem of being lied to by a sales agent is to have the system designed and specified by a consulting engineer. Costs more but provides a measure of protection to the agency, and also might just result in better pricing when the bids come in. Going it alone when you have absolutely no technical competence is plain foolish.

Worthy advice, but folks should also understand that there is no guarantee that a consultant won't specify a crap system either.

The only real defense here is for someone within your agency to learn enough about these systems so that you can understand what is being recommended well enough to ask good questions and then ultimately make a decent, informed decision.

Real life example for ya. When I moved into eastern NY state and joined the local volunteer ambulance squad, I made sure I learned about the existing public safety communications system and the future plans. Luckily, we're remaining analog and simply stepping up to narrowband. IMHO, that the best possible route for the foreseeable future here in this county. I was greatly relieved that I would not have to butt heads with administrators and consultants over the basic system.

 

[jim202]

There have been some good comments placed on this thread. However the problem still exists in that you probably don't have access to the department heads that are being wined and dined by the radio sales force. They lay some comments to the department heads and the seed gets planted. They work the process until that comment about "You have to go digital because that is what is required by the move to NARROW BAND" that the FCC has mandated". After hearing this several times, the department heads now have the mind set that there is a requirement and without further checking it out, it now becomes the way to go.

I travel around the country in my work and get to meet with many of the communications people at the dispatch centers I visit. It is not uncommon to hear the same comments over and over that the FCC is requiring us to go to a digital system. When I ask where that came from, it's always the same answer. The radio sales people told us that. Then I ask if they got on the internet and researched the migration to narrow band. Just about 100% of them say no, I don't have time for that and don't know where to look. We rely on the radio people to point us in the right direction.

Well people, this is where your tax money is going. Right into the pockets of the radio sales force and the radio vendors for this high priced new radio equipment. These department heads are blind sided and won't check anything out to make sure they are not getting a snow job.

I was doing some work in one sheriff department comm center and heard that they were constantly taking damage from lightning strikes. While I was doing my work, I looked around and found the master ground wire was never connected to the radio equipment and surge protectors. The sheriff himself was concerned about all the damage and had an open mind. I asked if he had been down in the radio equipment area. He said no. So I took him to the radio equipment area and showed him the ground wire just laying there and not connected to anything. He looked at me and asked how long I thought it had been that way. Told him from the heavy coating of dust and dirt on the wire, it had been like that for some time. He went back to his office, made a call to the radio shop and fired them. He then called another radio shop and asked if the owner could come over and talk with him about doing some service work.

All it takes is to get the attention of these department heads and wake them up. I have no financial interest in any of these places, but I hate to see tax money being poured down the drain and not used in a wise manner.

 

[matt131]

Radio dealers are having a field day with this 2013 mandate. Radio dealers are charging full MSRP for their radios and getting it. Kinda hard not to not pay it especially if you need a new system because your system is older and won't do narrowband.

 

[kg9nn]

The sales pitch

The sales pitch I received was something like this:

'You are required to go to 12.5kHz. Here are some FCC documents where they say 'licensees are highly encouraged to bypass 12.5kHz and go directly to 6.25kHz since it's the Commissions intention to migrate in this direction as soon as possible.' We cannot do analog 6.25kHz, only digital. So if you want to be a good steward of the taxpayers purse you should bite the bullet now and go digital 6.25kHz or else you're just going to find yourself in the same place within a few years ago.'

And the last half of the conversation:

'You cannot apply for the grant directly, it must go through the State of Indiana. IN-DHS has defined interop as being a radio which operates on the Hoosier SAFE-T system. So your choices are to stay on VHF at your own expense, or go digital 800MHz with a grant. If you do decide to go it on your own, you should consider NXDN or MotoTRBO to avoid a second wave of equipment buying in a couple years. I know you care about the taxpayers and the best thing for your local tax payers is to get 800MHz radios on grant.'

 

[Bob_61]

2013 Mandate

So we have used car salesmen selling radios to our public safety departments? Wonderful.............................. :twisted:

 

[JoeyC]

I get so sick of hearing people blaming the radio salesmen for doing their job. The "sales pitch" that kgn99 gave above doesn't sound deceptive or deceitful to me. It gave the facts and then steered the customer in the direction he wanted. Isn't that what a successful salesman does? Otherwise he has no job. It is ALWAYS up to the consumer to do their research before committing to a sales (especially one that relys on tax dollars). It is no ones fault but the folks who signed the contract as the purchaser. For complex projects such as a cities/counties etc radio communications system, this should never be the decision of one person. Motorola is in the business to sell equipment. If they don't sell equipment they don't stay in business. Its the CONSUMERS responsibility to know what the hell they are buying. You don't rely solely on the pitch by the salesman. If you do, expect to get snowed into the latest and greatest and most costly system they can get away with. Some of the people on this board would have everyone on vhf-lo band with their original radio equipment. Electrical components do wear out and replacement parts for old stuff is harder to come by/discontinued and radios and transmitter sites need to be replaced over time. This is progress.

I'm sure there are a few remaining black AT&T Bell System rotary dial phones with a metal dial in some peoples homes (or maybe some older), but most people have evolved to a more modern telephone that comes with handy features the old phones didn't have. Are there many (any?) remaining telephone party lines?

 

[Thayne]

Quite a "stretch" to go from salesmen of any sort to telephone party lines :roll:

 

[JoeyC]

Quite a "stretch" to go from salesmen of any sort to telephone party lines :roll:

The point being (which obviously went over your head) was very few people are left using old telephone technology when improvements have come around. Why should radio communications remain in the dark ages? :roll:

 

[Thayne]

The point being (which obviously went over your head) was very few people are left using old telephone technology when improvements have come around. Why should radio communications remain in the dark ages? :roll:

It didn't go over my head; I was trying to be meek & nice.

I will just say the whole thing was quite a stretch--and let it go at that--