Fdny

[radioman2001]

I am a little confused, I thought that FDNY was abandoning the VHF band? I see today they are adding FX1's to 153.77, 153.89, 153.95, 154.01 and 154.07 at 354 W54 st. Again I was under the impression that in order for NYC to get all those UHF-TV channels, they had to give up a lot if not all of their VHF stuff.
We have a repeater on that channel less than 2 miles away, I hope it's not going to cause any problems. BTW if you are looking for it, it's a Part 15 unlicensed transmitter.

 

[Citywide173]

Since the address is the Ninth Avenue railroad barn, it's probably an infrastructure buildout. The frequencies are the inputs to the various borough channels, so the address is most likely generic for some type of subway (or other in-house type) repeater system-the inputs are probably the UHF portable frequencies. The UHF buildout is going to take years given the amount of mobile radios that have to be installed/replaced, so maintenance and upgrading of the current VHF system will take place until a complete switchover is a reality.

 

[radioman2001]

When FDNY responds to our location they all carry 2 radios a VHF and a UHF. There is even a cabinet with VHF portables in it for them to issue on site. Why? Just use the UHF, or are the FD saying they don't get the same coverage? The UHF build out has been ongoing for nearly 5 years, these are new stations, why not just make it UHF?
I suspect that it is an in house repeater of some type. It would make more sense to put one up on UHF.
On another note FDNY is constructing a UHF repeater for the tunnels in our building.

 

[Citywide173]

I would expect that once the buildout is complete, you will see the license amended to include the UHF borough inputs and delete the VHF inputs.....since no moblies have been installed yet, and quite likely very few UHF receive sites, it would make no sense to put up a UHF system right now. They are still operating on VHF, and life safety pretty much dictates that they will use the current system to it's fullest potential.

 

[radioman2001]

I can't confirm whether they have had UHF radios installed in their trucks yet. There sure is a lot of traffic on the UHF DOITT system from FDNY. I believe that even fire grounds have been simulcasted on it during big events. There have been a number of other FD's that have licensed up on FDNY's channels, and FDNY has had to lower their power output. So I am at a loss at understanding if it is a life safety issue why keep the VHF if now they have to compete with other users on them. BTW another interesting thing is that they changed that license holder from DOITT back to FDNY.

From a conversation with a Captain at a call at our building, the rank and file is not happy with the UHF radios, it appears that there is a lot of interference from all kinds of electrical devices on their channels. The FD radio shop has also refused to program PL codes in the radios to eliminate hearing of the interference. The comment was better to hear it than not know it's there.

 

[Lynch_Christopher]

This a little off topic but a while back I happened to come across this license WPFS461 (NYC DOITT) for 154.4300 MHz and 153.8300. I found it interesting that the control point is at Vanderbilt Avenue and 43rd along with a transmitters at Grand Central Terminal, 72nd street and park avenue and 86th street and Park avenue.

Looks like 154.300 MHz is licensed at each site as FB and 153.8300 is licensed as FXO. What does FXO mean?

Thats interesting that you mentioned that the licenses have changed back to FDNY as the license holder.

 

[radioman2001]

154.43 is FDNY tunnel repeater, there are transmitters at GCT, 72nd st and 86st. That repeater uses 153.89 as the input. That's one of the reasons I am concerned about a FX1 1.2 miles away from it. I don't know why WPFS461 has 153.83 as a frequency, that used to be the low power portable channel, which is now licensable to 110 watts.

 

[Lynch_Christopher]

154.43 is FDNY tunnel repeater, there are transmitters at GCT, 72nd st and 86st. That repeater uses 153.89 as the input. That's one of the reasons I am concerned about a FX1 1.2 miles away from it. I don't know why WPFS461 has 153.83 as a frequency, that used to be the low power portable channel, which is now licensable to 110 watts.

Thats interesting so I wonder what 153.8300 is used for now that it is licenseable for 100 watts. Does the FD ever use 160.3350 in addition to 154.4300??

 

[radioman2001]

160.335 is a MNRR channel,FDNY doesn't use it.

 

[Lynch_Christopher]

160.335 is a MNRR channel,FDNY doesn't use it.

I recall it as being a MNRR channel, I was just curious if the FDNY had access to it during Emergencies.

 

[Citywide173]

154.430 may be used in the tunnels, but it's also the Citywide frequency with an input of 153.89....I wouldn't be too concerned about proximity-I'm sure there are voter/comparators on the system.

By life safety, I mean that the dispatchers need to be able to hear....if the UHF system is transmit only from the CO, they can't hear...all they seem to be listening on is VHF, as that is where the operations still are, and will be for some time.

 

[tbendick]

The VHF radios we use at gct are for a repeater system inside the terminal.
There is no UHF inside gct and all railroad stuff is VHF, it's my understanding that the fdny repeater tags along on the rr equipment for now. The station does have the subway repeater for use on the transit side of things.

There is a control point at gct but for safety reasons don't want to say how we do everything.

 

[radioman2001]

While we have gotten away from the original theme of the post, which is, wasn't FDNY and NYC told to give up a lot if not all of their VHF channels in exchange for TV channel 16?

FDNY has their own repeater in the tunnels on VHF 154.43 for years separate from anything GCT has.That repeater is to be replaced soon with a UHF one. Voters and comparators won't help the GCT system if it starts hearing another transmitter outside GCT on the GCT input. FDNY doesn't to my knowledge have access to 160.335. FDNY is very strict on what radios their members have and use, and what frequencies they have in FDNY radios. If I am not mistaken you can be suspended for carrying a non FDNY radio while on duty.

 

[Citywide173]

I guess my basic answer to your question was: Since the UHF buildout is going to take quite some more time, they have to maintain and upgrade the VHF system to protect the members of the department and the public.

A bit foolish fiscally? Yes, as it's an expense that's going to cause another expense to take it down when the UHF system is up, but if it saves one life, it's worth it.

 

[zerg901]

1. I dont think that FDNY was ordered to give up their VHF channels.

2. AFAIK, FDNY presently uses UHF portables and VHF mobiles. The UHF portables usually operate in simplex / single channel mode.

3. Listings show FDNY Subway channels as 460.625 and 460.575 IIRC. I dont know if that system is in place yet.

4. FDNY has 2 types of portable radios on UHF - POST (suitcase) radios are 45 watts IIRC - regular personal portables are approx 5 watts.

5. There are very few "in house" repeaters in NYC highrises AFAIK

6. I dont know what the FXO and FX1 listings on 153.77 and 153.83 etc are to be used for. Maybe it is part of a disaster recovery system.

7. Synchronized simulcast, BDAs, in house repeaters, portable repeaters, in car repeaters - they could all be used to enhance comms for FDNY in highrises.

Anyone have better info? Peter Sz

 

[tbendick]

1. Go me.
2. We still use VHF portables at some locations such as GCT.
3. Subway channels are in place and in use. However Metro North is not part of the subway so thats why you still see the VHF in use for locations related to Metro North Railroad.
4.We have many types of radios in use. Basic FF radio is the XTS3500R at 2 watts? goes to 5 Watts in emergency mode. Battalion/Division also have access to XTS3000 VHF, Vertex UHF and even some 800mhz stuff.
5.There are a mix of in building repeaters and leaky cable systems in midtown, there is more then you think. All the Durst Coperation buildings have repeaters now.
6.No idea.
7. We have access to cross band repeaters, in building repeaters but so far they like the post radio setup. One in the lobby and one in the fire area talking to each other on HT2. FF's in the fire area talk to each other on HT1. There is not much need for the FF in the fire area to talk to the lobby, he will talk to the chief in the fire area who is in communications with the Lobby command post via a post radio. Don't have to worrie about repeater failure in this case.

 

[n2nov]

The post radio is nothing but a mobile rig and sealed gel/lead-acid battery in a pelican case with an antenna mounted on it. Power levels should be about 25 watts, otherwise the battery would drain quickly. The display of the radio, along with LED lights, are poking out through one side of the case along with the microphone. Not too much different than some of the ham radio go-kit radios that were shown by various groups as their solution after 9/11.

 

[radioman2001]

Yes, I know about all the in building repeaters. Most are on Citywide already, we get interference, or bring up multiple stations at once when working at GCT. There should be a better way.
UHF in building repeaters would work much better. Plus they wouldn't bleed out to adjoining building causing interference to each other, and yes I do know it becomes a logistical nightmare having different repeater frequencies in different buildings, but there are already 2 subway channels why not do the same for buildings. Maybe make them alternate depending on locations, or even let command select the channel upon arrival.
Everything seems to be standing on the build out time. Well it's been 5 years, seems to me that is more than sufficient time to build out, or has FDNY been a little too arrogant in their demands with building owners in the placement and installation of such repeaters?
I am all for life safety, but a haphazard implementation can be more of a liability for it not being there than having something that works in place quickly. Carrying multiple radios generates the posibilty of missing a call when on the other radio. I am well versed in Command Operations, basically you need one person per frequency at the CP to ensure that something isn't missed.
I am going to try and look up if there were any requirements for NYC to get off all the other channels they have when they received the allocation of TV-16.

 

[tbendick]

Radioman you are getting some things confused. The repeaters on the Vhf citywide freq are no longer in use except for GCT. There are two channels Ht11 And ht12 dedicated for Uhf building repeaters just like the subway and yes they have been building these out however fdny is not pushing for this because they like the post radio better. As far as the repeaters in multiple buildings there is a control panel at FCS to activated the repeaters as needed so no need to worrie about two buildings unless you have a fire right near each other. But as I said before we use the post radio before the repeater don't have to rely on the building to make it work.

As far as the lobby command post. We need only to monitor ONE channel and that is command we do not monitor all channels. The command channel is the link between all parts of building and it Is the post that communicates on it's own tac channel. Fire attack on HT1 and SAE on HT3 with HT2"command" being monitored at all locations.

As far as getting off VHF these freqs have nothing to do with the new UHF repeaters and trunked radio system being built by doitt. I have no clue about if and when they have to get off the VHF. As far as GCT going to UHF i would have to ask my contact about any plans. I would hope as the build out the east side access that they would upgrade the equipment.

 

[zerg901]

Maybe I can offer 1 clarification to the clarification of the clarification.

FDNY used to have 3 different repeater systems on 154.43.

1. Citywide Repeater - a big (?100) watt repeater located on the top of some highrise used by the various FDNY borough dispatchers to talk to each other - 153.89 was (is) the input freq

2. WTC repeater - activated when needed in the World Trade Center complex - 153.89 was the input freq

3. 'In car' repeaters - 'MO3' is the FCC ULS designation - selected Battalion Chiefs cars had these in highrise districts - IIRC these were "crossband repeaters" that connected 154.43 to 460.625 - the Chief would be in the lobby command post with a UHF portable radio on 460.625 - the Chiefs messages would be relayed via the MO3 to the firefighters on the upper floors - firefighters on the upper floors would use VHF portables on 154.43 - the chief in the lobby would hear the 154.43 traffic coming back to him via 460.625 - when using this system, the Citywide system mentioned above in #1 would be shut down - there was an article in WNYF Magazine about this system many moons ago. (maybe this could be called a 'bi directional simplex 2 frequency MO3")

Peter Sz