Figuring out Cap+ in Buffalo area

[ak716]

So, after recent upgrades to the feed line, magically im getting some stronger signals. I had them as just unknowns for a while because the decoding was so poor of the signal coming in... but now, im getting somewhere ish.... but I'm wondering if anyone else is getting stronger stuff or maybe has some insight or can help

Cap+ Site 8 CC 8 453.2875 (Ch 3 &4), Neighbor: 7 - Only active TG I got today was TG 120, but the audio on it didn't give anything away on who the user is
Cap+ Site 7 CC 7 460.2375 (Ch 3 &4), Neighbor: 3 & 8 - So far, no TG's

Site 8 spit out a message about a second repeater on 464.3000.... which wouldn't necessarily jive with what I was thinking because that is being used by the Seneca Casinos, which is actively running NXDN TRS.... but, both Cap+ frequencies, the closest thing I can find near me that makes sense is WQXI615, which is Seneca Nation of Indians. Also, the thing that doesn't jive with my suspicions is the power on the license for those frequencies... 453.2875 is in Niagara Falls (allegedly) and at 3.3 watts.... no way I should be getting that in the Southtowns. 460.2375 at its highest power at any site is listed at 3 watts in Irving. I'm miles away from all those "low power" sites so.....im kinda stumped, or someone cranked up some power

also monitoring 460.4625, again, coming in as Cap+, CC 12. Again, on that same license, at 100 w, but coming in from Cuba, NY...... so no surprise I'm not getting it too well.

Anyone wanna help figure it all out? I've been sitting on it for a while, but I'm finally getting good, consistent decoding of the rest channels (obviously excluding 460.4625)

 

[k2hz]

What are you seeing for the System ID on these sites? That is usually a first clue to if the sites are all from the same system and who owns the system. SaiaNet is 171 so it also helps to rule out known systems. Since 460.2375 is a Public Safety frequency that should rule out commercial users in the US but Canada is always a prime suspect in your area for anything that does not fit the FCC band plan.

Seneca Nation is a governmental entity so they are eligible for Public Safety.

 

[GTR8000]

Cap+ won't have a NetID...only Con+ or T3/CapMax

 

[k2hz]

I see why you are confused since 464.300 is licensed to FM Communications although it is listed as the CC for Seneca Buffalo Creek Casino in the RRDB although all the rest of the site frequencies are Licensed to the Casino. It is possible the Seneca Nation DMR and the Seneca Casino NXDN systems are somehow interconnected. The casinos are a corporation so they are on Business frequencies.

I think you are on the right track that this is all Seneca Nation related. Don't always believe the ERP (like 3W) on FCC licenses for systems in the area where power figures on applications are manipulated to get around Canadian coordination.

 

[ak716]

Also, the 460’s have tons of business in it around the Buffalo Area. Regardless, Seneca Nation is a municipality or nation or however it is titled, so I would assume with them being a form of government, that shouldn’t matter.

I would think that there wouldn’t be hybrid NXDN Cap+ systems..... that just seems too strange. I guess I just keep sniffing and if anyone else has any input, well compile it into a submission

 

[k2hz]

453.0 -454.0 and 460.00 - 460.650 are exclusively Public Safety. Above 460.650 to 465.0 is mostly business with the exception of GMRS and MED channels. Same for the 458 and 465 mobile/repeater input band. Any business use in those frequencies in the Buffalo area would likely be Canadian or unlicensed.

The system itself wouldn't be "hybrid" since I am not aware of any dual mode radios but they could very well be patched together. The Seneca Nation is a government entity on their territory and they do hold Public Safety FCC licenses. Not sure exactly how it is structured but they have their own law enforcement and public works entities although they may also have agreements with area local governments for services. The casinos appear to be normal corporations but owned or controlled by the Seneca Nation.

So, it is possible the casino gambling, food and entertainment services would have their own radio system but still want some interoperability with the Seneca Nation government radio system. And, these would logically be separate systems for a variety of legal reasons. It certainly would have made more sense to go with the same radio technology but they are somewhat independent organizations and may have reasons for going their own way.

 

[ak716]

I'll agree to the compliance of the 453 - 454 and 460.460.65 in the area.... nothing stands out to me that isn't "Public Safety"... or at least a government agency license that I can see.

The only reason I was saying "hybrid", with my doubt that it even is, is that DSD+ spit that out as a repeater channel for it. Not sure how it did that, just find it ironic that it says its a repeater on the site and its a totally different flavor of digital, used by the suspected user as well. I too am unaware of any TIII and NXDN products out there for use as a HT. SNI has their own "marshals", however, in Erie County, ECSO responds to the Rez, and SNI isn't allowed or doesn't talk on the PD radios, you'll just hear "SNI Marshals call Radio" when ECSO is going there for a call. Not sure how it works in Catt Co though. SNI Marshals have TG's on the Catt Co P25 TRS as well, I just haven't heard much chatter of them on it.

My guess, and just a guess here is that this Cap+ is theirs, just limited to Highway, Public Works, B&G, Local Gov't ops, that kind of thing, seeing how all their other bases are covered by other systems, in my eyes.

 

[GTR8000]

Kenwood makes several mobiles and portables that are digital multi-mode capable, able to operate on DMR, NXDN, and P25 systems of various flavors.

 

[ak716]

Kenwood makes several mobiles and portables that are digital multi-mode capable, able to operate on DMR, NXDN, and P25 systems of various flavors.

I actually looked into that... the Kenwoods are limited to DMR Tier 2 though

 

[GTR8000]

I actually looked into that... the Kenwoods are limited to DMR Tier 2 though

Negative, they are Tier III capable. Look at the NX-5x00 series.

NX-5800 UHF Digital Two-way Radio P25(Ⅰ&Ⅱ)NXDN ,DMR Multi-Digital & FM Analog Mobile Radio - NEXEDGE KENWOOD

NX-5000 Series mobile radios are ready to serve in all public safety, public sector and commercial roles with flawless performance and advanced feature sets. In addition, enhanced and increased features extend the digital capability.

comms.kenwood.com

https://comms.kenwood.com/en/products/model.php?ID=NX-5300-a

 

[ak716]

Oh! I didn't see that! I guess I eat my words! I found a different page that said NXDN Trunking, DMR TII and P25 Ph 2. Thanks for pointing that out. I highly doubt that the repeater is set to do NXDN trunking and Cap+ though, but I guess I could be wrong again!

 

[GTR8000]

Yeah I doubt that's what's going on with whatever you're picking up, it makes no sense...but the radios are definitely out there!

Too bad the APX never got DMR.

 

[ak716]

One could have only dreamed! At least up here...! Would be mind-blowing to have an APX do NXDN, DMR and P25..... but that would make too much sense...

 

[k2hz]

My guess, and just a guess here is that this Cap+ is theirs, just limited to Highway, Public Works, B&G, Local Gov't ops, that kind of thing, seeing how all their other bases are covered by other systems, in my eyes.

We are both thinking alike on this now! I was thinking about your recent post about Cattauraugus when writing my previous reply.

Legal, political and economic concerns cause radio systems to be built that seem stupid from an engineering perspective. P25 radios are so much more expensive that some highway departments simply can't afford them. Public Works agencies have tight budgets and usually can't get the "first responder" grant money like Public Safety. If you need to buy 100 subscriber radios, the cost savings of DMR vs P25 may be more than great enough to offset the cost of building and maintaining separate infrastructure vs joining the area P25 system.

The "Line A" frequency coordination requirements with Canada in the Buffalo area lead to all sorts of odd things like Buffalo Creek Casino system with a control channel licensed to their vendor, FM communications, while the Casino has a license for the voice channels. A CC requires a "FB8" license which is difficult to get coordination approval. FM apparently had a FB8 license for 464.3 and the Casino was able to get FB2 ordinary repeater licenses for the voice channels. I commend them for this approach vs playing games with ridiculously low ERP requests to get a license. There was also a recent post about a hotel in Buffalo that is apparently operating with no license on a frequency they applied for that was rejected.

Sorting out what you are hearing in the area can be very challenging when you hear something that does not seem to fit existing license data. It could be an unlicensed or different from what the license shows US operation or a legitimate operation in adjacent Canada.

 

[k2hz]

Oh! I didn't see that! I guess I eat my words! I found a different page that said NXDN Trunking, DMR TII and P25 Ph 2. Thanks for pointing that out. I highly doubt that the repeater is set to do NXDN trunking and Cap+ though, but I guess I could be wrong again!

I agree it is very unlikely that a repeater would be dual mode. But, the 2 systems could still be linked with some sites DMR and other sites NXDN. The casino staff would probably only need NXDN radios but some Seneca Nation officials could have dual mode radios for when their duties take them to a casino site. This is pure conjecture but it would be an interesting application.

 

[k2hz]

There is ham radio oriented software, MMDVM and possibly others, available to link DMR and NXDN networks so a commercial version probably exists.

MMDVM

A Hub For Information Regarding MMDVM amd HotSpots

mmdvm.co.uk

 

[BTFire21]

460.2375 is really weak into my reciever and I am located outside Hamburg with a 50' tower into a preamp and multicoupler system. I will leave one instance of DSD on it for a few days and see what it comes up with.

 

[Saint]

Could it be this
460.23750 GREAT WOLF LODGE SITE 1 NIAGARA FALLS ONT DMR
Steve

 

[BTFire21]

It could be but the few conversations I have heard so far do not have any of the usual Canadian accents. Also I cannot see them have multiple sites.

 

[ak716]

460.0625 - CC 7 - Ch 1/2, strong signal today, just the rest channel though, keeps bouncing back and forth between 460.0625 (Ch1/2) and 460.2375 (Ch3/4)