Fire Dept. and FRS

[KW4EZR]

Saturday night I had the misfortune of watching my neighbor’s house burn to the ground. They were not home and no one was hurt. I and another neighbor saved two dogs that were in the house as well as a few things of furniture.

Once the Fire Dept showed up I noticed something very strange. The fire department was using FRS frequency (Channel one) for talk around activities. They were also using 453.075 which is the repeater output frequency in simplex. But the thing that I thought was so strange was the FRS frequency use. I had several scanners on hand and all of them continued to stop on FRS ch 1. Close Call in my BCD396T also confirmed this. I have heard of FRS ch 1 being set aside by RACES as an emergency channel, but I am sure that this is not what they were talking about. This frequency was programmed into there 4 watt UHF radios. When they would un-key, the radio had the same roger beep that is used on there 453.075 channels. Anyone else heard of anything like this? As the Rescue/Fire members drove off I picked them up for some distance, I almost believe that this FRS frequency was programmed into some of their higher power mobile radios. After they left the scene of the fire this frequency was used for common chit chat between units. Strange? Not strange? Comments?


Darren

 

[nd5y]

A fire department using FRS (or illegaly using equipment on FRS frequencies) is pretty stupid but
it wouldn't be the first time a government public safety agency did something stupid or illegal and certainly won't be the last.

Since when is FRS ch 1 a RACES emergency channel? I've never heard that one before.
Could somebody point out exactly where in part 95 or part 97 that is stated?
That sounds pretty stupid too but less likely to get somebody killed than a fire dept. using FRS.

 

[ofd8001]

Once upon a long time ago, the fire service was not above using CB radios for communications.

I don't know about the specific fire department, since it was not identified. One valid reason is maybe the fire department cannot afford to buy better suited radios.

As far as "illegal" goes I think I may have read somewhere in the FCC rules that one can transmit on most any frequency to safeguard life and property.

 

[cellblock776]

If they were using more than 1/2 watt on FRS ch 1 then it's not FRS. It's GMRS which requires a license. Either the department must be covered using an existing grandfathered department wide license. If not then every user would be required to have their own separate GMRS license. Next time they are around try calling them on the FRS channel and see if they answer.

 

[MacombMonitor]

It's also possible they were using GMRS radios, which are allowed to operate higher wattage. However, unless they've had them for sometime, and were grandfathered in, they could still be in violation. Currently GMRS is only licensed for personal, and family use, not business.

 

[ab8sf]

If the department is really short of funds, its probably safer to equip the firefighters with FRS than with nothing for short-range fireground communications. As for the too much power, they probably have a few guys like those that used to modify the 11 meter radios.

The RACES Channel 1 issue is a recommendation and an informal arrangement. It is not intended to be a set-aside frequency. It allows a multitude of people with FRS to communicate with the helpers at an emergency or at a disaster scene. It is also an informal "standard" to make initial contact.

Jim

 

[KW4EZR]

I do not know the type of radio they are using, but what ever the Dept. uses has the same roger beep after the transmission regardless if it is a repeater Ch., Simplex Ch, or the FRS/GMRS Ch. So I do not think it is a dedicated FRS/GMRS radio. It is a professional radio programed with this freq. I was given a list of freq used, by a dispatcher several years ago, all freq that are listed are used by the County Public Saftey depts. No where in the list was a FRS/GMRS freq listed. I think this is a new development, so I feel like the grandfathered issue does not apply. Also this was more than 1/2 watt. I could hear them on an HT using only a rubber duck as they drove off for up to about 10 miles away.

 

[MacombMonitor]

I do not know the type of radio they are using, but what ever the Dept. uses has the same roger beep after the transmission regardless if it is a repeater Ch., Simplex Ch, or the FRS/GMRS Ch. So I do not think it is a dedicated FRS/GMRS radio. It is a professional radio programed with this freq. I was given a list of freq used, by a dispatcher several years ago, all freq that are listed are used by the County Public Saftey depts. No where in the list was a FRS/GMRS freq listed. I think this is a new development, so I feel like the grandfathered issue does not apply. Also this was more than 1/2 watt. I could hear them on an HT using only a rubber duck as they drove off for up to about 10 miles away.

There is some very professional radio equipment manufactured for use on GMRS frequencies. Icom, and Motorola, for starters. GMRS is not limited to the cheap bubble-pack radios you see in department stores, or Radio Shack. As for the "roger beep", the old Maxon 210+3 GMRS hand-held had that. GMRS is allowed 5-watts on hand-helds, and I think up to 50-watts on base, and mobile units.

Maybe they took a hint from that recent article that was discussed here on RR, where some forest fire fighters were employing ham radio equipment. There is a lot of that out there that is programed out-of-band. It seems there is a total disrespect for the FCC, so nothing would surprise me!

 

[Stephen]

Now I may be wrong but there could have been a image or mirror going on if you are close to people running alot of power 4-5 watts within a few hundred feet they might not have actually been using that frequency but a mirror from the 453 frequency. I have had this happen when a buddy was scanning and a bus driver keyed up on a 464 frquency and it key up an FRS channel and we could hear him within a few hundred feet. After that it went down.

 

[KW4EZR]

There is some very professional radio equipment manufactured for use on GMRS frequencies. Icom, and Motorola, for starters. GMRS is not limited to the cheap bubble-pack radios you see in department stores, or Radio Shack. As for the "roger beep", the old Maxon 210+3 GMRS hand-held had that. GMRS is allowed 5-watts on hand-helds, and I think up to 50-watts on base, and mobile units.

Maybe they took a hint from that recent article that was discussed here on RR, where some forest fire fighters were employing ham radio equipment. There is a lot of that out there that is programed out-of-band. It seems there is a total disrespect for the FCC, so nothing would surprise me!

RIght, I understand that GMRS radio can be professional, but can these radios also be programed for UHF public saftey freqs? As for the ham radios being used, that sounds likely, however, I have never owned a Ham HT with a roger beep. I have had several HTs but I have not had my ham ticket for too long so maybe older ones use a rodger beep. FRS/GMRS just seems like a "dumb idea" to use of pulic saftey operations. Too many kids around that could complicate life and death situations. I guess that was my point to the post. I was in disbelief when I saw what was being used. But sounds like this is more common than I thought.

Darren

 

[KW4EZR]

Now I may be wrong but there could have been a image or mirror going on if you are close to people running alot of power 4-5 watts within a few hundred feet they might not have actually been using that frequency but a mirror from the 453 frequency. I have had this happen when a buddy was scanning and a bus driver keyed up on a 464 frquency and it key up an FRS channel and we could hear him within a few hundred feet. After that it went down.

That was my first thought. That Is why I check with three different scanners and used close call. Also I think( and I could be wrong) that if it was a mirror or image of the 453 freq they use, I would not have been able to monitor them for the distance that I did. I heard them for 10-12 miles before the signal was lost. Can you hear an image or mirror over that big of a distance?

Darren

 

[kingpin]

We kept several of them on our trucks for use in traffic control at wrecks only. This kept us from tying up our main radio system for such trivial traffic. This way, we could still monitor our system.

I've had many ham transcievers and I can't recall one that had the "roger beep". All of my Kenwood commercial equipment has this option but I turn it off. They may have been operating on a repeater for you to hear them from so far away. An image from 10 miles away on an HT, hardly likely.

 

[EC-7]

It could also be repeated from a scanner to a FRS radio from one of your neighbors.

Back a few years ago, I had my desktop scanner hooked up to a FRS radio with Voice Activation (VOX) and whenever the FD or PD was recieved it keyed up my tiny handheld FRS radio and transmited to my other FRS radio so my friends and I could all listen in around the neighborhood, cause I only had a desktop, and we couldnt take it portable. I thought we were the only people on those radios, cause it was when FRS was pretty new, and nobody ever said anything about it. It was one of my little "inventions" when I was 12yo or so.

As for the FD using FRS freqs, It wouldnt be so crazy. The PD FD EMS deptartmens dont really know much about radios, and they could of had Joe Schmoe at the radio shop want to stay cheap and not get them licensed and just programmed FRS into the radios. I've heard some PD detectives on 154.570 and 154.600 MURS freqs before. The departments themselves dont program the radios and setup the systems. Heck, with as much as Motorola rips the Public Service Depts up the wazoo for $$, they prolly cant afford good radios and systems. When Michigan first went to APCO-25 Digital, they had to get a backup 1 channel repeater installed cause the multi million $ system barely worked. My mobile CB and ham radios worked more reliably than them. There is no reason why anyone should pay $400 per radio for a basic mobile or handheld or even $2500 for handheld and $5000 for mobile digital radios.

 

[ThornyO5]

My fire department uses 469.5625 PL 151.4 for fire ground. Thats a business freq. It doesn't seem to be uncommon.

 

[MacombMonitor]

It could also be repeated from a scanner to a FRS radio from one of your neighbors. [CLIPPED]


As for the FD using FRS freqs, It wouldnt be so crazy. The PD FD EMS deptartmens dont really know much about radios, and they could of had Joe Schmoe at the radio shop want to stay cheap and not get them licensed and just programmed FRS into the radios.

That's a very good possibility that I didn't think of, a neighbor very well could be re-broadcasting his scanner via an FRS radio!

As for programing the department's radios with FRS frequencies to avoid getting them licensed, that would be illegal. There are very strict limitations on FRS radios.

 

[SCPD]

I have heard of FRS ch 1 being set aside by RACES as an emergency channel

There was a petition filed with the FCC by a group of GMRS/FRS people who have a Internet GMRS magazine. This petition was denied by the FCC. It had nothing to do with RACES or Radio Amateur Civil Emergency Service, the operation of which is spelled out in detail by Title 47 of the Code of Federal Regulations Part 97. The operation of RACES is restricted to some very specific circumstances and narrow frequency ranges in all bands below 2 meters. Operation in all of the 2 meter, 70 cm, and 23 cm bands is authorized. These frequencies are all in Amateur bands and the use of FRS/GMRS frequencies is not authorized.

I don't believe there is a prohibition for a RACES ham to speak with a citizen on FRS/GMRS in regards to an emergency, however, a RACES ham speaking to another RACES ham in an emergency where RACES has been called up by a civil defense organization is prohibited. In fact, the only time a RACES organization can transmit on amateur frequencies outside of an actual emergency where the civil defense organization has activated it is for drills and training. Such activity cannot exceed 1 hour per week.

I do find the use of a FRS channel for fireground communications to be surprising. Can you imagine someone getting on their FRS and transmitting fake traffic? For that reason I would be very uncomfortable working an incident using such a frequency. There are enough hazards on incidents of all kinds to keep track of, which can kill or injure you, adding the use of frequencies widely available to the public for transmitting would be the addition of another hazard that should be avoided.

When I worked for the U.S. Forest Service there was clearly spelled out policy available in the Forest Service Manual which prohibited use of CB and FRS/GMRS. The only exception was using CB to communicate with logging trucks working timber sales. Under those circumstances, with no althernatives being available, employees could use CB. Employees could only use CB to talk with timbers sale contract personnel and not to another employee of the USFS.

 

[michaelsbus]

Whoa just a minute...

Dear Darren:

The Peddler Gap Volunteer Fire Dept. is duly licensed on 453.075 - which is not FRS!
All the FRS/GMRS freqs are 462/467 MHz. Think you jumped the gun here when you programmed your radios...

 

[MacombMonitor]

Dear Darren:

The Peddler Gap Volunteer Fire Dept. is duly licensed on 453.075 - which is not FRS!
All the FRS/GMRS freqs are 462/467 MHz. Think you jumped the gun here when you programmed your radios...

He acknowledges they're licensed for, and are using 453.075MHz. He says they were using FRS CH1 in addition to 453.075MHz. He confirmed it on more than one scanner, and also using Close Call on his BCD396T. He never implied that 453.075 was FRS CH1.

 

[WX5JCH]

We use frs radios all the time on our hazmat team here. Low power is safer. We have a VHF and ham radios as well. Yes we are licensed.

 

[16b]

I know of some public safety agencies (police and fire) that have frequencies like 151.625 and some MURS channels in their radios. I wouldn't be all too surprised to hear of a fire department that had an FRS channel in their radios. Of course it would be illegal (and stupid, too), but either the people that made that decision aren't aware of that fact, or just simply don't care.

I wonder if the "roger beep" that you are speaking of might be MDC-1200 or another form of ANI data.