Frisco / Little Elm amatuers and a newbie hello to Fort Worth old timers

[tateconcepts]

Hello all,

This is my first post at Radio Reference and to say - thank you to all who have posted excellent radio analysis and other relevant information to help those new to amateur radio - especially those of you here in this thread as well.

While this thread is dedicated to discussing Frisco and Little Elm frequencies and systems - I want to say a big thanks and a final goodbye from K5CDR - MSG Carl Houser, my grandfather who has been in amateur radio, along with signals intelligence for the TX Army Air and National Guard with MARS since the 1960's. I'm sure those of you listening to him over the years appreciated his dedication and expertise of all radio amateurs all around the world. Some of you across the US and globe have also spoken with him at times over the past decades. As a child, I have been listening in over the years as he locked himself away; Morse code at times with various ham and military channels throughout the 1980's along with Fort Worth / Tarrant County on his RadioShack scanner (you may also know Carl from his work as an Engineer for Tandy Corporation and Compaq Computer). Those who knew him I would think would have heard from his friends on the air, that he passed away in the summer of 2010. As his sole grandson - I have received his VX-5R for family emergencies and will be actively involved here from time to time. If you use firearms regularly - you will also see me at the new Frisco Gun Club regularly or on The Firing Line forums. Today, I work in his footsteps as an IT Security Analyst / Engineer for a cyber security organization, previously listed as a defense contractor before it split. I am actively pursing my IT security career but with the new Kali Linux distro (I'm not hijacking this to discuss it - Google it if you are curious) there is more and more interest in digital radio and SDR (not going there either). I always work at the 'cutting edge' and live on the 'fringe' of society to keep balance in my life so I don't feel like I'm living in 1984.

The purpose of this thread is after reading quite a lot about various areas - I didn't see anything on Little Elm in RR but a single confirmed LCN. My family and I moved northeast out of the Lewisville area (aka Keeping it Country) to start our new family. Now that we purchased our home (located off 380 between Denton and McKinney), I can't hear anything really up here but our old town of Lewisville and DCSO. I'm not sure what the deal is with this area but I can't seem to hear Little Elm for the life of me on analog and I now know (from looking at these systems on RR) that the folks with cash in these necks of the woods between FEMA and Raytheon (Denton to McKinney) have decided to get going on the digital rebanding when funds present themselves. Obviously my Yaesu will not receive these. I have read the Uniden BCD-396XT cannot hear these guys but are you so sure? (I use Uniden as a loyal Fort Worth native for generations).
I used the RR import of these systems and I am hearing various traffic on Frisco and PAWM (mainly going down DNT or PGBT) - I haven't heard a peep on McKinney which is odd as sometimes Wylie comes in just fine at home though!

I really want to make this Uniden work - UPMan maybe you know why I am hearing things this forum says I can't and for all others - hello and I can't wait to talk to you on the air soon. Thoughts anyone on either Frisco or Little Elm with Uniden BCD396XT (damn I really liked that 346XT I bought before) and P25 or not? Where and what is Little Elm is my main concern with DCSO at my home along as Plano, Richardson and DPS for work. I don't give a hoot about federal frequencies or digitally encrypted stuff as I am mainly only interested in the local security nearby as I am in a data center most of the day. I need to know who's nearby and why before I give the green light to LE and then find out they already went there and missed the person who was 'testing the waters'.

BT

 

[n5ims]

Yes, the Plano, Frisco, and McKinney systems have gone Digital P-25. Carrollton will as well in a year or so. Since the Lewisville, Denton City, and Denton County systems are the same age and type as Carrollton, they've also most likely gotten the letter from Motorola that their systems will no longer be supported in a year or two and will also most likely be replaced soon. Probably with P-25 digital systems as well.

One thing to think about when buying a new scanner for the area is that some of the existing digital systems and many of the new ones that are not yet fully live will be the Phase II type system. The bad news there is only the PSR-800 that will work on them at this point (and this is no longer being made due to GRE shutting down - don't fret too much since Whistler has purchased the rights to GRE's scanner line and should be making them by mid 2014). It may be worth waiting on the new lines of scanners (rumors are flowing that Uniden will release some new ones soon and Whistler's re-release of the GRE line in mid 2014) that will hopefully include the Phase II capability.

Until then, the Collin County, Denton City and Denton County systems are fairly active and you probably can pick up the Carrollton system as well, at least until they upgrade in 12 - 18 months.

 

[tateconcepts]

@n5ims - Thanks for such a quick reply. I would like to wait on a new model, unfortunately circumstances require me to have this capability now. I not really concerned about cost for work but for personal I have limits of course in price. I am hearing people on these programmed systems like Frisco and PAWM - who state that they are P25 but I am getting both. Weird think is - not consistently. It's like I can see a signal sometimes but the squelch doesn't break and nothing is heard. Other times - I see Plano PD Dispatch1 or something like that at work and at home I see Frisco PD Dispatch 1 occasionally and that could just be distance. I don't get why I haven't hear anything from Little Elm as they are at my doorstep. I can hear DCSO pretty well (even with the 346XT which I just returned because of P25 support). I wanted to try it for myself and compare with my SDR that I am building for a base radio at home with a Raspberry Pi.

This just seems silly because - I am hearing these systems and groups which are classified by RR as P25 Phase I and II possibly X2-TDMA (since I am hearing Plano, Allen, Wylie and Murphy at times with the imported systems). I thought this wasn't possible with a Uniden XT series (I sent a message to another user who comments on this at times with a similar radio).

Thoughts on this everyone? And also, what is the frequencies and types for Little Elm? Can anyone confirm RR is correct?

 

[n5ims]

A couple things to think about. First off, although the RR DB may list an agency as P-25 Phase II, they may still only run Phase I currently (although their control channels may broadcast the Phase II capability). This may be to allow time for the newer radios to be purchased and installed. It also may be that they don't currently need the additional capacity that the TDMA will provide and are more comfortable using the Phase I type of system until their needs change.

Secondly, many digital systems allow for analog traffic to be sent over them when necessary. This may be due to a single radio on the talkgroup isn't digital capable so the system forces analog to allow the traffic to be received. That radio may be an older one (a backup perhaps) or simply a user from another agency is on the system for inter-agency training or operations. Quite often this is why there may be occasional analog traffic on what normally would be a digital trunkgroup.

 

[tateconcepts]

I agree with this - but if this was the case, then why do I hear and see the talkgroup ID's at times
and also again I know there are simulcast which appear as such.

Regardless of Frisco - Little Elm shows up as LTR but all I see is
Unconfirmed LCN with an occassional two or three bars of sigmal. This radio says it supports LTR
but I haven't heard Litte Elm at all, even with sitting in downtown Frisco hearing it all. Why can I not hear Little Elm is the question and can anyone tune in and verify if its just me or am I doing something wrong with imported settings. I will be trying close call features tomorrow.

 

[Russell]

PAWM, Frisco and McKinney all 'advertise' P2 or X2 on the control channel but no Phase II talk groups have ever been heard. It may be a while before any P2/X2 groups appear as most of the radios do not support P2 talkgroups at this time. P25 systems have no ability to transmit analog talk groups - it is all digital all the time. These system can be monitored with a Phase I scanner (McKinney PD is encrypted and can not be monitored). PAWM is somewhat difficult due to simulcast issues but can be monitored.

Not being too familiar with Little Elm, their talkgroups exist on the Denton County system. - they have a dedicated fire TG that units go to after being dispatched by Denton Co. As for Police you will most likely find them on one of the Denton County common PD talkgroups or SO Dispatch as most of Denton County law agencies are dispatched by the Sheriff's Office (except Denton, Lewisville and a couple of others). Outside heavy metro areas it is very common to have all law on one or two talkgroups as they tend to work together and sometimes cover each other outside their city limits. Collin County is also this way, the SO and smaller cities are all on SO Primary and all work together with one dispatcher.

Even within metro areas some cites are shifting to common dispatch services to reduce the cost of their operations. In Tarrant County Richland Hill, North Richland Hills, Watauga, Haltom City have combined their dispatch operations into a single Combined Dispatch Operations Center with fewer dispatchers. Carrollton, Addison, Farmers Branch and Coppell are said to be combining their dispatch ops when they move to P25 (a Harris P25 system)..

Russell

 

[mass-man]

TG 592 is the dispatch for Little Elm and other small towns in Denton Co. You will also hear LE on TG 496, 528, 560. At one time there was a list of unit numbers, so you could determine what unit was with what town. I guess now you have to know a few major intersections or addresses in LE to know it is them.

Don't forget LE was named one of the safest towns in TX earlier this year. Short of traffic stops there is not a lot of activity in LE!

 

[Russell]

Unit numbers are in the Wiki; Denton County (TX) - The RadioReference Wiki

 

[mass-man]

I totally zoned on the Wki....tnx!

 

[Russell]

I don't know how recent or accurate that is ... it might need some updating.

 

[tateconcepts]

This is really weird.

So I have used the import feature of RR in FreeScan. An important note - TX DPS is no longer listed as an importable system so I had to copy it from my preloaded memory and then add the other systems to it.

Today, I added only those in Collin County - as I am sitting in Plano (PAWM) using a Uniden BCD396XT I am hearing random talkgroups that I can only do a temporary lockout on. The imported system only shows TG 1001 under Plano City Services since I selected the import options to ignore certain types of groups nonetheless I am definately hearing oddities like TG 224 and a bunch of *** clowns on the Public Waste TG. I have heard other TG too - like Animal Control TG 235 - Even Allen and Plano PD dispatch and I just heard TG 280. (See attched FreeScan image)

Anyone have any thoughts to what is going on? I think this may be the cause of the weird reception and also why I don't hear Little Elm either when I am sitting across the street from a well patrolled border with DCSO and DPS on Hwy 380. Today I am listening near PGBT and 75 Central at Plano Prky. Hopefully someone can enlighten me how I have these TG and can't see that I have imported them or where they are to lock them out in FreeScan in advance.

Thank you everyone!

BT
Uniden BCD-396XT - Yaesu VX-5R

 

[hiegtx]

This is really weird.

So I have used the import feature of RR in FreeScan. An important note - TX DPS is no longer listed as an importable system so I had to copy it from my preloaded memory and then add the other systems to it.

Texas DPS can be imported via FreeSCAN. Just select Import->Radio Reference Conventional and log in.
Then, once you've logged in and selected U.S. as your country, and Texas as your state, you'll find that "Department of Public Safety (DPS)" is listed with a number of other statewide entities under the "Provincial/Statewide Agencies" drop-down menu.

Today, I added only those in Collin County - as I am sitting in Plano (PAWM) using a Uniden BCD396XT I am hearing random talkgroups that I can only do a temporary lockout on. The imported system only shows TG 1001 under Plano City Services since I selected the import options to ignore certain types of groups nonetheless I am definately hearing oddities like TG 224 and a bunch of *** clowns on the Public Waste TG. I have heard other TG too - like Animal Control TG 235 - Even Allen and Plano PD dispatch and I just heard TG 280. (See attched FreeScan image)

Anyone have any thoughts to what is going on? I think this may be the cause of the weird reception and also why I don't hear Little Elm either when I am sitting across the street from a well patrolled border with DCSO and DPS on Hwy 380. Today I am listening near PGBT and 75 Central at Plano Prky. Hopefully someone can enlighten me how I have these TG and can't see that I have imported them or where they are to lock them out in FreeScan in advance.

Thank you everyone!

BT
Uniden BCD-396XT - Yaesu VX-5R

This sounds as if you may be scanning in "ID Search" mode instead of "ID Scan". In "ID Scan" mode, the scanner will scan only those talkgroups that you have entered and that are not locked out (or are not in a locked out group). In "ID Search" mode, the scanner will stop on any active talkgroup that is not locked out (or not in a locked out group). Talkgroups that you entered, or imported, with text tags, will show those tags. The ones that you're picking up because you're in "Search" mode won't have the text entered, so all you'll see is the talkgroup ID. The selection for ID Search vs. ID Scan is made on the first screen you see when you click on the system in FreeSCAN. The same screen where you modify the system name or system type. You're only locking those 'unwanted' talkgroups out temporarily, with a single press of the L/O key. So, whenever you turn the scanner off, then power it back up, that temporary lockout goes away, and the talkgroup is no longer disabled. Function + L/O is the permanent lockout, but a better solution is enter what you want to hear, then get the system set for ID Scan, not ID Search.

As far as your troubles with the Denton County system & hearing Little Elm, are you hearing other traffic on that system? Regular DCSO dispatch traffic and fire dispatches?

You might post your file so someone can take a look at it. Either zip (compress) it with a file utility such as WinZip or 7-Zip, or add an extra file extension name to the file. For example, say you named your file "Denton.996" (*.996 is the extension used by FreeSCAN). The extension .996 is not acceptable for attachments on the forum. So, just rename a copy 'Denton.996.txt'. *.txt (text) is an acceptable file extension, and you can then attach your file to a post.

 

[tateconcepts]

I think Steve is right

@Russell - I love ya man, you're the best. You are correct and so is Steve. I kept wondering WTF when these random TG started appearing and I'm telling you - I have heard some strange stuff recently.

I actually 'heard' on the BCD-396XT within the PAWM area Plano Narc 1 or 2. These three or four staff followed someone around Legacy up Coit I think and then down Independence to a school where these narcs were wearing backpacks hoping that the person doesn't walk too far because it was raining (lazy LEO IMHO).

I have literally proved to my wife that this thing could actually hear Frisco PD patrol pulling a lady over at Stonebriar and boom - there she was on the radio. I have heard quite a lot but I am wondering if I should just take this back and get the 346XT (the only one left). I had it before but discovered many people moved to analog but everything around me looks to remain analog for at least another year or so. I am leaving my defense job thanks to a RIF and are forming an ammunition company with my Dad. We already have some of the finest LE and PMC ammunition available and are producing it exclusively.

For the moment, I am listing to DSCO dispatch and apparently a reckless black mail driver in a white Chevrolet jubilee (WTF) wearing a rain coat who has somehow impersonated an LEO and flying down 380. I also heard some rag chewing on 145.300 I believe last night (still waiting on my license to talk back).

 

[tateconcepts]

One other general question. I don't know that I really care to hear EMS and FD/PD broadcasts as much as I need to hear civil issues in my neighborhood or should I choose to participate in ARES/RACES once I complete my General license next week.

I will mainly be with my HT rag chewing with others and on air frequencies as I use my 'weather' UAV to test over farm and ranch areas. Now that I have indeed confirmed my area is not yet digital, I would like to be able to just enter the main control for DCSO Ptl 2 - 857.2875 on my Yaesu VX-5R so I can listen when appropriate and rag chew to others at other times. Anyone have any idea how to only tune them in on this device? I got DCSO Dispatch last night but it went to garbled noise after an hour or so. I tried using CTCSS after using no Tone Squelch at all. I see a tone but maybe I am reading this wrong. I can't wait to talk to you guys on the air and I'm sure each of you have a ton of IT Networking and Security questions you would love to hear - as would other agencies...

I got an RIF on the last day of the damn government shutdown. WTH? It was only a Band-Aid fix anyway and everyone I work with is about to be screwed anyway since we are in a DCAA audit. See Home | ISC8 and Yahoo Finance Balance Sheet and Message Boards. Nice to be a business major in information systems, at least I know I can find sysadmins work if the security market is tight. So many agencies that are adopting these digital systems (TX DPS) have IP based networks that allow them to communicate across the state. You will never hear those with a radio and certainly not a digitally encrypted one. You might (if you work in a NOC/SOC) hear the end you aren't supposed to hear (or at least see it in the packet headers). There are plenty of tools available and there are number crunchers available to break encryption (I didn't say what type so relax everyone). Remember that graphics cards (GPU) from Nvidia and ATI can really take a whack at encrypted hashes and with the Bitcoin craze in full swing, ASIC USB based miners can hit a dual SHA-256 encryption and take it down quick. The models before however are good at crunching numbers besides SHA-256 and those my friends, with an SDR can give you

all you need.

First rule of Fight Club is - don't talk about Fight Club.
Second rule of Fight Club is - don't talk about Fight Club.

 

[tateconcepts]

Texas DPS can be imported via FreeSCAN. Just select Import->Radio Reference Conventional and log in.
Then, once you've logged in and selected U.S. as your country, and Texas as your state, you'll find that "Department of Public Safety (DPS)" is listed with a number of other statewide entities under the "Provincial/Statewide Agencies" drop-down menu.

This sounds as if you may be scanning in "ID Search" mode instead of "ID Scan". In "ID Scan" mode, the scanner will scan only those talkgroups that you have entered and that are not locked out (or are not in a locked out group). In "ID Search" mode, the scanner will stop on any active talkgroup that is not locked out (or not in a locked out group). Talkgroups that you entered, or imported, with text tags, will show those tags. The ones that you're picking up because you're in "Search" mode won't have the text entered, so all you'll see is the talkgroup ID. The selection for ID Search vs. ID Scan is made on the first screen you see when you click on the system in FreeSCAN. The same screen where you modify the system name or system type. You're only locking those 'unwanted' talkgroups out temporarily, with a single press of the L/O key. So, whenever you turn the scanner off, then power it back up, that temporary lockout goes away, and the talkgroup is no longer disabled. Function + L/O is the permanent lockout, but a better solution is enter what you want to hear, then get the system set for ID Scan, not ID Search.

As far as your troubles with the Denton County system & hearing Little Elm, are you hearing other traffic on that system? Regular DCSO dispatch traffic and fire dispatches?

You might post your file so someone can take a look at it. Either zip (compress) it with a file utility such as WinZip or 7-Zip, or add an extra file extension name to the file. For example, say you named your file "Denton.996" (*.996 is the extension used by FreeSCAN). The extension .996 is not acceptable for attachments on the forum. So, just rename a copy 'Denton.996.txt'. *.txt (text) is an acceptable file extension, and you can then attach your file to a post.

@heigtx @mass-man @Russell @n5ims

Here's my 996 file and you were correct. I was a tool and had them on ID Search not Scan. The good news is that if I had not turned this on by error during import on some of these systems, I wouldn't have heard traffic on them at all.

Obviously McKinney is a waste of time but laws may change with them soon. I think the citizens of Texas are getting upset that we don't know if our FD and PD that we pay for is really doing its job and I can see enough people getting a petition up to Greg Abbott, David Dewhurst and Jerry Patterson along with getting all in Texas Congress to 1 - We (those in this forum) must stop streaming these. Besides it's a crime to use a scanner to commit a crime but not a phone, hence why we are seeing more of these excuses for doing digital and using encryption. 2 - We must allow public oversight of at least dispatch but ensure EMS/LE can use encryption when possible and 3 - stop the pork barrel spending on all this crap from Motorola which shares its radio data with its IP data from Motorola Mobility aka Google (their parent company) and have vested interests in getting everyone off of analog to digital to peddle their 'extra security' so people like me can bust it up and make them look like an idiot for throwing good money at bad and then state that they need more crap to protect them against the crap they designed with flaws. Digital is not always better and at times and is not appropriate as we all know. I hate the stupid streaming apps, reminds me of the days when thugs were the main users of Nextel iDEN phones after Sprint bought them - hence the demise of direct device PTT for the consumer. I can see a reason for a FD to be on streaming for volunteer ease of access without a scanner as before (unless you just want one). The ISP's love you to stream data so they can sell you more or meter it for more profit.

What a greedy mess DFW is indeed. Time to get a rope - not for me but we all know who - nonetheless we must uphold the law and allow them a trial. Those that are responsible will be held accountable and that's just how it is. Maybe when I get time on change.org I will get a petition online to strike down McKinney and others using encryption for no valid reason at all. If not, we will force them off the ballot for re-election through another grassroots campaign. Our forefathers fought for their freedom (some of us have done so as we believed we were doing so in foreign affairs) nonetheless today, we must fight for ours and do it peacefully. Just like this here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Athens_(1946)

The Battle of Athens: Restoring the Rule of Law - YouTube

Again this must be done peacefully as there are many good men and women in uniform and you will be labeled as a 'terrorist' if you attempt to exercise your rights with even the First Amendment these days. Nevertheless, we can't just sit idle while our children are robbed by the greedy and those corrupt, rooted in our government (even at the local level) who might as well be shooting at you overseas in Iraq because you support our Constitution. I wonder what the Rick Perry - Texas Secession comment brought from those clowns in our US Congress?

 

[hiegtx]

I think Steve is right

@Russell - I love ya man, you're the best. You are correct and so is Steve. I kept wondering WTF when these random TG started appearing and I'm telling you - I have heard some strange stuff recently.

I actually 'heard' on the BCD-396XT within the PAWM area Plano Narc 1 or 2. These three or four staff followed someone around Legacy up Coit I think and then down Independence to a school where these narcs were wearing backpacks hoping that the person doesn't walk too far because it was raining (lazy LEO IMHO).

I have literally proved to my wife that this thing could actually hear Frisco PD patrol pulling a lady over at Stonebriar and boom - there she was on the radio. I have heard quite a lot but I am wondering if I should just take this back and get the 346XT (the only one left). I had it before but discovered many people moved to analog but everything around me looks to remain analog for at least another year or so. I am leaving my defense job thanks to a RIF and are forming an ammunition company with my Dad.

While the 346XT is an excellent analog scanner, as is it's base/mobile sibling the BCT15X, if you downgrade to analog now, you may regret sooner than you think. While it may be a year or more until Denton makes a move to convert, you would immediately lose Frisco, Plano (PAWM), Richardson, Prosper, & Texas DPS. Also many of the smaller counties, whose agencies primarily use Vhf-high conventionally, are now using that in digital mode. Examples of that are just to your north in Cooke & Grayson County. Of course, you could downgrade now, and just concentrate on the Denton area, then when & if they make a move, which doubtless they will, since the old analog systems are no longer being supported, you may be able to either get a good deal on a good condition used digital, or choose from among one or more new models that should be released by that time.

@heigtx @mass-man @Russell @n5ims

Here's my 996 file and you were correct. I was a tool and had them on ID Search not Scan. The good news is that if I had not turned this on by error during import on some of these systems, I wouldn't have heard traffic on them at all.

I looked at your file, and have a couple of suggestions.

For Texas DPS, I use a different setup. I have one group within the system that has the various North Texas & near West Texas stations (out towards Abilene) text tagged. Yes, some duplicate each other, and all are also in the Statewide P25 list. But that group is the first scanned. My second group is for DPS on the tollways here in the metro area. The third is the statewide P25 channel plan.

Also, Texas DPS sometimes operates in duplex, not repeater, mode. That's when the base is talking on one frequency (for Dallas, that would be 155.4525), while the mobiles would be answering on a different one altogether (again, for Dallas DPS, that would be 154.7025). If they are using duplex mode, you would not hear both sides of the conversation at the same time, and likely would not hear the mobile, unless you were within a few miles at most, with a good antenna. For that reason, on this specific system, I use a longer hold time, and a brief delay. The "hold" keeps the scanner in the DPS system file to try & pick up the reply generated on a different frequency.

On your Denton County system: I note that you have tagged talkgroup ID 592 (Small PD Dispatch) as a priority channel. Remember that two things have to be in place for that to have any effect. First, the scanner must be scanning within the Denton County trunked system. And second, that channel must also be set, by the system administration (the Denton system admin, that is) as a 'priority channel. Otherwise, it's just another talkgroup as far as the scanner is concerned. See Preemptive Priority on this page.

It looks like all of your trunked systems are still set to ID Search. You can easily change that in FreeSCAN, then download to the scanner again.

Since the Little Elm/Denton area seems more important to you, you might consider adding a one second hold time to the Denton County TRS. That will keep the scanner there slightly longer, and possibly increase your chances of catching a call.

For my files, I generally do not download all of the talkgroups for each public safety agency (police/fire/ems), especially not a lot of the training, admin, and talk channels. While a few of the talk channels might, occasionally, be interesting, usually it's much more routine (where do you want to meet for lunch?). I would suggest you think about weeding out the ones that mostly have time wasting traffic. They're holding up the scanner, when something more interesting is going on elsewhere. But that's my opinion, YMMV.

Attached is your file, with my version of Texas DPS added, using QK 20. If you like it, use it, or, of course, delete it. I did not make any other changes.