Future encryption

[KD0NDO]

Does anyone have any info on other metro
counties / agencies that plan to encrypt in the near future? Seems to be the common practice as radios are being updated from legacy units. Would be nice to see some transparency remain by keeping some things open and encrypting certain talkgroups.

What are your thought on the use of encryption? Not trying to start a disaster here. Looking for some intelligent discussion. I think that it’s a great tool to have but not necessarily the greatest thing to just encrypt all comms.

 

[stmills]

Pretty much all agencies have some encryption and have had for years, many had it prior to ARMER - in the past most was used for investigations and some car to car. Now we are seeing a rapid move to encrypted car to car and patrol dispatch, the official push has been Officer safety and privacy of citizens, however behind the scenes Motorola has been the heavy push for encryption and not for any altruistic reason- just for pure profit- on phone calls with investors they have identified selling encryption to public safety as one of the biggest opportunities to increase profits.
Anoka County- dispatch- rumored to be coming, car to car - some departments
Carver County - dispatch- in planning stages
Dakota County - dispatch- in planning stages - car to car some departments
Hennepin County:
PSAPS with dispatch & car to car full encryption : Airport, Eden Prairie, Hennepin 911, St. Louis Park
Bloomington investigations Encrypted
Edina car to car encrypted
Minneapolis- planning some increase in encryption
U of M - planning to move to encryption
Ramsey- Sheriff has stated no plans to move to encryption
Scott - full encryption
Washington - rumored to be moving to encryption

 

[KD0NDO]

-
I'm guessing you just aren't aware how many times this "topic of discussion" has been started and beaten to death. Follow the advice given in post #3 and read through the multitude of threads already discussing the subject. I think most of us here would agree... no need to start another one.

I’ve certainly seen posts about it. I’m also seeking info local to my listening are.

 

[stmills]

For all the encryption experts who are piping in on the Minnesota ARMER discussion please provide a current status on the encryption on the ARMER system, or provide links to current discussions on encryption on the Minnesota ARMER system - we are not talking about New York, North Carolina, Texas or any where else in this post to the Minnesota section of RR we are taking about encryption in Minnesota.

 

[mikewazowski]

Out of area posts deleted.

Since this is in a Regional forum, let's let the locals hash things out. While I'm sure everyone has good intentions, what happens in your own state probably does not apply here.

 

[KD0NDO]

Out of area posts deleted.

Since this is in a Regional forum, let's let the locals hash things out. While I'm sure everyone has good intentions, what happens in your own state probably does not apply here.

Thank you. I’m happy to see that people understand where I’m coming from.

 

[KD0NDO]

I mostly monitor Wright county and the State Patrol. I know Wright county has a few encrypted groups but they are VERY rarely used. Buffalo PD c2c is the only one regularly used. Does anyone know if either of these agencies plan to migrate to more encrypted groups / completely encrypt?

 

[iowajm780]

Unless somthing that is offically noted to say it's rumored is irresponsible. When I lived in Anoka County years ago, it was "rumored" that ACSO would be fully encrypted by 2010. It's now 2022 and there are some C-C talkgroups and tac stuff that is, it's nowhere fully encrypted what was rumored years ago it would be.

 

[ofd8001]

I enjoy listening to ARMER feeds on Broadcastify Calls platform and would hate to see a detriment to that. Hopefully enough local political pressure can be applied by both the public and the media. Perhaps an end result if encryption happens, are delayed official feeds of Mains or Dispatch channels.

 

[citiot]

Scott County misused CARES money to purchase encrypted radio equipment:

">>Scott County, Savage spend coronavirus relief dollars on encrypted police radios<<"

The county commissioners and the sheriff are still in office. Pay attention to elections at the county level in your respective areas.... These elected officials run un-opposed quite often and don't know the basics of law and finance.

 

[stmills]

I enjoy listening to ARMER feeds on Broadcastify Calls platform and would hate to see a detriment to that. Hopefully enough local political pressure can be applied by both the public and the media. Perhaps an end result if encryption happens, are delayed official feeds of Mains or Dispatch channels.

Unfortunately the media has been silent for the most part on the loss of a news gathering tool. For the most part they have just stopped covering breaking news in the areas that have gone encrypted. It was really ironic in 2020 to see a group of police leaders from cities that are fully encrypted complaining aboUt the lack of media attention to increased crime in their cities.

 

[AAFC]

Pretty much all agencies have some encryption and have had for years, many had it prior to ARMER - in the past most was used for investigations and some car to car. Now we are seeing a rapid move to encrypted car to car and patrol dispatch, the official push has been Officer safety and privacy of citizens, however behind the scenes Motorola has been the heavy push for encryption and not for any altruistic reason- just for pure profit- on phone calls with investors they have identified selling encryption to public safety as one of the biggest opportunities to increase profits.
Anoka County- dispatch- rumored to be coming, car to car - some departments
Carver County - dispatch- in planning stages
Dakota County - dispatch- in planning stages - car to car some departments
Hennepin County:
PSAPS with dispatch & car to car full encryption : Airport, Eden Prairie, Hennepin 911, St. Louis Park
Bloomington investigations Encrypted - Bloomington also has at least one, possibly two encrypted TAC channels.
Edina car to car encrypted
Minneapolis- planning some increase in encryption
U of M - planning to move to encryption
Ramsey- Sheriff has stated no plans to move to encryption - However, they have turned on encryption on at least one county talkgroup so the car thieves can't listen to the Sheriffs office while they're tracking stolen vehicles. Sheriff Bob Fletcher has discussed this on his weekly Live Stream on Friday nights.
Scott - full encryption
Washington - rumored to be moving to encryption

I just added to your info (in bold) with what I have heard.
(click to expand)

 

[mmtstc]

There are some technical complexities that come with encryption that affect an agencies ability to share their talkgroups with "friendlies." Radios can only handle so many encryption keys and it becomes a complex mess. The SRB is looking at doing at the regional level is for dispatch talkgroups, encouraging agencies to utilize a regional key as the common key for dispatch mains and then anything that you would like to cloister, you put on your own private encryption key that you dont share with friendlies.
For example, I carry an APX6000 that has ADP/DES/AES encryption enabled. I would have my own agency use Key A for the main talkgroup, but for an internal talkgroup that i want less access to, I use Key B. My neighboring agency encrypts their main talkgroup with Key A, but they dont need me listening to their investigations talkgroup, so they use Key C, which they havent shared with me. Another shared neighbor of both of use also encrypts their main talkgroup, again using Key A, but doesnt want me listening to their car to car talkgroup, so they use Key D. Now if the other two agencies share a resource like a DTF or SWAT, they can certainly share either Keys C or D or else they could utilize Key E as a shared resource but with less availability than Key A.
Additionally, the state is encouraging agencies to purchase AES encryption on radios as they want things migrated that way and away from ADP and DES. This, as i understand it, is to comply with federal rules about information privacy in LE contexts. If you want specific citations, read the SRB meeting minutes, which i would encourage all of you to do anyways, there is lots of great stuff in them.
You also wont enjoy hearing that Unication pagers are capable of DES and AES, so the counties that have implemented 800mhz paging for their fire departments could certainly transition to ENC fire mains. I think we are a decent ways away from that and you will likely see EMS transition to ENC before fire especially once much of the XTS/XTL hardware gets retired.
Personally, I dont think that it is a money grab on Motorola's part. I know I am in the minority in this group, but i firmly believe the ENC is important for responder safety (and not just LE, all responders) and keeping some of the gritty bits of someone's really bad day out of the spotlight.

 

[AAFC]

Personally, I dont think that it is a money grab on Motorola's part. I know I am in the minority in this group, but i firmly believe the ENC is important for responder safety (and not just LE, all responders) and keeping some of the gritty bits of someone's really bad day out of the spotlight.

Really? Two-way radio has NEVER been encrypted since the invention of two-way radio..... and suddenly we need it for "safety"? I'm sure you can find a few examples over the decades of when the bad guy could hear what the cops were saying via a scanner and it negatively affected the outcome of a situation but it is very rare. It's very rare (if ever?) that an officer or any other responder has been hurt or injured strictly because their two-way radio was NOT encrypted. It is absolutely a money grab on the part of Motorola. Remember, Motorola SELLS radio system. That's how they make money. We have cell phones, in-squad laptop computers, email, and text messaging..... so anything that is THAT sensitive can be transmitted to and from officers/dispatch in several, already encrypted ways.

In the days of Police scrutiny by the public, more now than ever, going encrypted only makes them look like they're trying to hide something. Trust me, if the shoe was on the other foot, the Police would automatically call this situation "suspicious "..... someone would be cuffed and detained until they proved themself innocent. lol.

The ONLY reason why this is even a topic is because Motorola marketed encryption as a "feature". If Motorola didn't add encryption to their P25 radios as a "feature" in the first place, then nobody would even be talking about it today. Police radios have never been encrypted and they don't need to be today.

Don't get me wrong, I am 100% behind our Police. I love them and the world would suck without them..... But that doesn't mean they suddenly need encrypted radios.

 

[wogggieee]

Really? Two-way radio has NEVER been encrypted since the invention of two-way radio..... and suddenly we need it for "safety"? I'm sure you can find a few examples over the decades of when the bad guy could hear what the cops were saying via a scanner and it negatively affected the outcome of a situation but it is very rare. It's very rare (if ever?) that an officer or any other responder has been hurt or injured strictly because their two-way radio was NOT encrypted. It is absolutely a money grab on the part of Motorola. Remember, Motorola SELLS radio system. That's how they make money. We have cell phones, in-squad laptop computers, email, and text messaging..... so anything that is THAT sensitive can be transmitted to and from officers/dispatch in several, already encrypted ways.

In the days of Police scrutiny by the public, more now than ever, going encrypted only makes them look like they're trying to hide something. Trust me, if the shoe was on the other foot, the Police would automatically call this situation "suspicious "..... someone would be cuffed and detained until they proved themself innocent. lol.

The ONLY reason why this is even a topic is because Motorola marketed encryption as a "feature". If Motorola didn't add encryption to their P25 radios as a "feature" in the first place, then nobody would even be talking about it today. Police radios have never been encrypted and they don't need to be today.

Don't get me wrong, I am 100% behind our Police. I love them and the world would suck without them..... But that doesn't mean they suddenly need encrypted radios.

I recently read an article about a city going encrypted; I believe it was in somewhere like Arkansas. The chief of police cited officer safety as the reason for making the change. The reporter asked the chief if he could provide examples where it happened and he was unable to. To me the real officer safety aspect here is protecting themselves from themselves after some less than stellar radio traffic has come out as well as allowing them to more easily control the narrative. Encryption created a clear transparency issue and I'm surprise some activist groups haven't gotten on the issue.

 

[sonm10]

Getting back on topic:

No one really knows when or if an agency may decide to encrypt all communications. I think the metro area is very upfront about public announcements. St Cloud, however, was quite a surprise.

Another option may be read through the radio boards meeting minutes. I believe @stmills and a couple others may be up on that. I have to warn you though, it is very dry reading. Been quite some time since I've done it.

Meeting materials | Minnesota Department of Public Safety

This site holds the last six months of approved agendas, supporting materials, and minutes for each of the committee meetings.

dps.mn.gov

 

[stmills]

I recently read an article about a city going encrypted; I believe it was in somewhere like Arkansas. The chief of police cited officer safety as the reason for making the change. The reporter asked the chief if he could provide examples where it happened and he was unable to. To me the real officer safety aspect here is protecting themselves from themselves after some less than stellar radio traffic has come out as well as allowing them to more easily control the narrative. Encryption created a clear transparency issue and I'm surprise some activist groups haven't gotten on the issue.

Hearing talking points given on encryption in the news from different states sounding almost word for word the same lead me to look for a source of the talking points and it all pointed to the same contracted supplier - Motorola. This was what brought me to the earnings reports that identified public safety encryption as an identified growth market for Motorola. In the Twin Cities alone we have had at least 2 cases in the past 2-3 years where scanner users and members of this group have been arrested for use of scanners in commission of a crime, and we have had people come to this group and ask about how to monitor specific agencies trying to get the information to monitor law enforcement while they commit illegal activities.

 

[stmills]

Getting back on topic:

No one really knows when or if an agency may decide to encrypt all communications. I think the metro area is very upfront about public announcements. St Cloud, however, was quite a surprise.

Another option may be read through the radio boards meeting minutes. I believe @stmills and a couple others may be up on that. I have to warn you though, it is very dry reading. Been quite some time since I've done it.

Meeting materials | Minnesota Department of Public Safety

This site holds the last six months of approved agendas, supporting materials, and minutes for each of the committee meetings.

dps.mn.gov

City council meetings are also a very good source of information on these changes. When a city if purchasing new radios it is often put to the city council to approve and justification on the need for the purchase can provide some very good insight.
When Hennepin County first started the move to encryption a date was set and Motorola extended a significant savings - encryption add on to new radios was next to nothing (under $100 per radio) for radios purchased under contract leading up to the proposed switch over date.

 

[AAFC]

In the Twin Cities alone we have had at least 2 cases in the past 2-3 years where scanner users and members of this group have been arrested for use of scanners in commission of a crime,

For the record.... I said that it's "RARE" for the bad guy to use a scanner and listen to the Police when committing a crime. I did not say that it NEVER happens.

Were there any Police officers or other first responder physically hurt or injured in those 2 cases? And if so, were the injuries strictly a direct result of the scanner usage?

Also, I had no idea people of this group are/were running around the metro area committing crimes after receiving info from this forum. That's crazy! But again, has any of that directly resulted in Police or first responder injuries?

The Police are using "officer safety" as the main reason for encryption, How many LEO injuries are a direct result of their two-way radio system not being encrypted?

Bloomington has at least one, if not two encrypted TAC talk groups..... They can easily switch to these talk groups if/when there is a dangerous situation like a stand-off with someone barricaded in a house with a gun. (for example) And that is exactly what they do right now when they feel the need is there. There is absolutely ZERO reason to encrypt the dispatch mains. None!

I don't care if they encrypt EVER other talk group, in EVERY department, in the ENTIRE state....... But leave ALL main dispatch talk groups open! Then switch to encrypted talk groups as needed, or use other forms of communication like email, text, or cell phone. After all, everyone carries a miniature computer in their pocket these days. (smartphone)

If that sounds unreasonable to anyone in the the Law Enforcement world, then I would would ask.... "What are you trying to hide"?

 

[AAFC]

I recently read an article about a city going encrypted; I believe it was in somewhere like Arkansas. The chief of police cited officer safety as the reason for making the change. The reporter asked the chief if he could provide examples where it happened and he was unable to. To me the real officer safety aspect here is protecting themselves from themselves after some less than stellar radio traffic has come out as well as allowing them to more easily control the narrative. Encryption created a clear transparency issue and I'm surprise some activist groups haven't gotten on the issue.

That is exactly what I was trying to say but I am not great with words.

If we recently added body cameras to help with "transparency" (among other reasons) then why would we TAKE AWAY transparency by encrypting radio traffic so only the police can hear themselves.

One step forward, two steps back......