Getting the most out of barefoot performance

[FPR1981]

Let's take linear amps and mods out of the equation and assume that everyone ran barefoot. Where does that leave us?

In my non-technical experience with simply spending years around the practice of playing CB radio, I would think that leaves us leaning heavily on the antenna. That's where real performance begins.

So, if I want the best performance out of a good antenna, height is my best friend, right? So, what's a realistic expectation/estimation of range if I have an A99, Sirio 27 ground plane, IMAX or a similar omnidirectional antenna 35 to 50 feet in the air, communicating to mobiles and other stations with a similar setup, respectively?

Now, let's go a step further. Let's say I have something like a Moonraker with a "multiplication factor," and it's 35 to 50 feet in the air. With 4 watts, what kind of range could I reasonably achieve to another base station with an omni antenna in the air? Or another station with a similar beam?

I guess the nitty gritty here is, how effective can we expect 4 watts to be in different scenarios. Would love to hear your opinions, and stories of long-range barefoot communications.

 

[KEWB-N1EXA]

Location Location Location !
On the Ocean or on the flat lands 15 miles on AM...In the 70s the House had a Astro Plane And a Radio shack whip on the boat and that was 10 miles and we could have a conversation on a non skip day. Right now with my V dipole I can talk 12 miles on SSB.
4 watts Is not the issue its that the signal path 10-15 miles out is getting high up in the Atmosphere...Radiation angle !
The next stop is 1,000 miles down range where the signal lands after the bounce off the ionoshpere!
That's why You switch to a flat side Horizontal Beam... The Vertical Path just does not cut it so far out.

Peter N1EXA

 

[iMONITOR]

Let's take linear amps and mods out of the equation and assume that everyone ran barefoot. Where does that leave us?

In my non-technical experience with simply spending years around the practice of playing CB radio, I would think that leaves us leaning heavily on the antenna. That's where real performance begins.

So, if I want the best performance out of a good antenna, height is my best friend, right? So, what's a realistic expectation/estimation of range if I have an A99, Sirio 27 ground plane, IMAX or a similar omnidirectional antenna 35 to 50 feet in the air, communicating to mobiles and other stations with a similar setup, respectively?

Now, let's go a step further. Let's say I have something like a Moonraker with a "multiplication factor," and it's 35 to 50 feet in the air. With 4 watts, what kind of range could I reasonably achieve to another base station with an omni antenna in the air? Or another station with a similar beam?

I guess the nitty gritty here is, how effective can we expect 4 watts to be in different scenarios. Would love to hear your opinions, and stories of long-range barefoot communications.

11 meter C.B. is HF. Hams have been known to talk around the world on HF using a couple of watts when conditions are right.

 

[WB9YBM]

So, if I want the best performance out of a good antenna, height is my best friend, right?
Now, let's go a step further. Let's say I have something like a Moonraker with a "multiplication factor," and it's 35 to 50 feet in the air. With 4 watts, what kind of range could I reasonably achieve to another base station with an omni antenna in the air? Or another station with a similar beam?

Yes; like the old proverb says, "Height is might". The higher you go, the further you can see over the horizon and the less "ground clutter" will be absorbing or reflecting your signal. (Although at some point when the coax gets too long then cable loss becomes an issue, requiring a higher quality coax.)

It's hard to say how far the "multiplication factor" (otherwise known as db gain) will increase range (too many variables) but yes a gain antenna will help with both transmit and receive in the direction that it's pointed in, with a degradation in range on either side & back of the antenna.

 

[slowmover]

1). Antenna structure one wavelength from the building; and,
2). Antenna feed-point one wavelength in height.

Start there.

 

[FPR1981]

Speaking of antennas and wavelengths...

I am mesmerized by the fact that I took a Workman BS-1 dipole, marketed as a CB dipole and sold by Bob's CB Shop (I'll get into why that's wrong in just a moment), mounted it up horizontally along the top of my 6-foot wooden privacy fence, and was only throwing 2 or 3db less to the other station I was talking to when I switched off my ground plane.

Now, about that Workman dipole being for CB, I wouldn't be surprised if some idiot took that as gospel and used it like it comes and toasts their radio. It was marketed as being the CB dipole. It looked awfully long. I hung it up to test it and realized it was not going to work. I got out my SWR meter and it was a burying it.

That's because it was 12 feet per side.

I'm no expert, but even I know that won't work for CB. So I cut it down to 9 foot per side immediately, and started checking and trimming equally. I got it down to 1.2 across the band (it ended up around 8.5 feet per side, give or take) and that antenna will talk! For $30 it was was $30 well spent. But I think the fact that it has zero instructions and is sold as a CB antenna, when it's entirely the wrong length, is aggravating to say the least.

 

[KEWB-N1EXA]

Speaking of antennas and wavelengths...

I am mesmerized by the fact that I took a Workman BS-1 dipole, marketed as a CB dipole and sold by Bob's CB Shop (I'll get into why that's wrong in just a moment), mounted it up horizontally along the top of my 6-foot wooden privacy fence, and was only throwing 2 or 3db less to the other station I was talking to when I switched off my ground plane.

Now, about that Workman dipole being for CB, I wouldn't be surprised if some idiot took that as gospel and used it like it comes and toasts their radio. It was marketed as being the CB dipole. It looked awfully long. I hung it up to test it and realized it was not going to work. I got out my SWR meter and it was a burying it.

That's because it was 12 feet per side.

I'm no expert, but even I know that won't work for CB. So I cut it down to 9 foot per side immediately, and started checking and trimming equally. I got it down to 1.2 across the band (it ended up around 8.5 feet per side, give or take) and that antenna will talk! For $30 it was was $30 well spent. But I think the fact that it has zero instructions and is sold as a CB antenna, when it's entirely the wrong length, is aggravating to say the least.

Are you running this dipole Verticaly , Horizontally or at a 45 dergee slope ...It will make a difference to the antenna polarity at the other end.

You will see a 2-3 db difference between different polarities... A verticle will look differently to a horizontal if the recieving site does no match.

Also running 50-75 ohm coax to a dipole with no Balun sitting at say 400 ohms is going to throw all kinds of SWR issues.

if you take 234/frequency x 12 = the 1/4 wave legnth in inches for the antenna use 468 for a 1/2 wave dipole. its a ball park figure

Because you still going to have to tune due to many factors.

Peter N1EXA

 

[FPR1981]

Are you running this dipole Verticaly , Horizontally or at a 45 dergee slope ...It will make a difference to the antenna polarity at the other end.

You will see a 2-3 db difference between different polarities... A verticle will look differently to a horizontal if the recieving site does no match.

Also running 50-75 ohm coax to a dipole with no Balun sitting at say 400 ohms is going to throw all kinds of SWR issues.

if you take 234/frequency x 12 = the 1/4 wave legnth in inches for the antenna use 468 for a 1/2 wave dipole. its a ball park figure

Because you still going to have to tune due to many factors.

Peter N1EXA

I have always run my dipoles vertically, and up high, but in this instance I ran it horizontally for testing purposes. I was shocked that it talked so well for no higher than it was off the ground.

 

[WB9YBM]

mounted it up horizontally along the top of my 6-foot wooden privacy fence, and was only throwing 2 or 3db less to the other station I was talking to when I switched off my ground plane.

the 6-foot elevation (if I'm reading that correctly) set off an alarm bell: I once had a ham antenna (dipole) about fifteen feet above ground (it was for 14 MHz), and the radio didn't want to transmit into it. I checked the chart and confirmed the length; then I took a grid-dip meter and confirmed what the chart said--it tuned at 14 MHz. I did a bit more digging and found out that when a dipole is less than one wavelength above ground the impedance is going to be off, which explained why my radio was having fits.

 

[Mikejo]

Just to cleanup the Math a bit

234/Frequency in MHz will give you the 1/4 wave length in Feet.

Then, take what is after the decimal point, and Multiply it by 12 to get inches.

Example: 234/ 27.185 = 8.607688063270186

That is 8' .607688063270186

Now do 12 x .607688063270186 = 7.292256758724223

After cleaning it all up, you get 8' 7.292", and .292 is between 9/32 0.2813 and 19/64 0.2969... just cut it a tad bigger at 5/16, so

you would get 8 feet 7 and 5/16 inches for CB Channel 19..

Of course 468/ 27.185 would be the 1/2 wave length, the total length of the full dipole antenna (8 feet 7 and 5/16 inches Per side).

 

[KEWB-N1EXA]

Well I made Mine for 28.000 Mhz and use and antenna tuner to slide between CH 38 LSB and 28.490MHZ whch is the local 10 meter net
Well under $20 total.

234/28.00x12=100 1/4 inches each side.

Is this Vertizontal or Horaverticle ?

Peter N1EXA

 

[KEWB-N1EXA]

This is my Barefoot

Let's take linear amps and mods out of the equation and assume that everyone ran barefoot. Where does that leave us?

In my non-technical experience with simply spending years around the practice of playing CB radio, I would think that leaves us leaning heavily on the antenna. That's where real performance begins.

So, if I want the best performance out of a good antenna, height is my best friend, right? So, what's a realistic expectation/estimation of range if I have an A99, Sirio 27 ground plane, IMAX or a similar omnidirectional antenna 35 to 50 feet in the air, communicating to mobiles and other stations with a similar setup, respectively?

Now, let's go a step further. Let's say I have something like a Moonraker with a "multiplication factor," and it's 35 to 50 feet in the air. With 4 watts, what kind of range could I reasonably achieve to another base station with an omni antenna in the air? Or another station with a similar beam?

I guess the nitty gritty here is, how effective can we expect 4 watts to be in different scenarios. Would love to hear your opinions, and stories of long-range barefoot communications.

This is my Barefoot CB...1990s Cobra 148 with PLL mods Unlocked Clarrifier and frequency counter. with this and the home made
dipole it works for me.

 

[KANE4109]

I have to say though.......... if you idea of economizing is to "cut corners" on coax.... as in chase down the cheapest you can possibly get.... you are hurting yourself. Not as much in mobile (you only have 18' or less!) but in base.

People fight over the TOP END cables now as to whether the difference really MAKES any difference. I get that....
But if you go dirt cheap...... the losses will eat you alive.
When you only have 4 watts tops...... the better the coax.... the MORE of that power will get to the antenna.
"crap coax" will hurt the finest of antennas.

Put some money in coax!!!!

 

[prcguy]

You will see much more than 2 or 3dB comparing horizontal to vertical. 20dB is a commonly used number for cross pol degradation but it depends mostly on reflective surroundings. If you remove that like an antenna pointed up to a satellite, mid 30dB and up to 40dB cross pol attenuation is normal. Slanting a dipole at 45 degrees will give you exactly 3dB degradation with no reflective surfaces around and that's what to expect from an inverted V dipole talking to a vertical.

Are you running this dipole Verticaly , Horizontally or at a 45 dergee slope ...It will make a difference to the antenna polarity at the other end.

You will see a 2-3 db difference between different polarities... A verticle will look differently to a horizontal if the recieving site does no match.

Also running 50-75 ohm coax to a dipole with no Balun sitting at say 400 ohms is going to throw all kinds of SWR issues.

if you take 234/frequency x 12 = the 1/4 wave legnth in inches for the antenna use 468 for a 1/2 wave dipole. its a ball park figure

Because you still going to have to tune due to many factors.

Peter N1EXA

 

[merlin]

Back about early 70s I did some CB(worked at Pathcom a while)
Avid SWL, I would pick up QRP on 10 meters globally at a solar cycle peak. CB antennas were Hy-Gain super mag groundplane, A Hy-Gain 5 element 'long john' horizontal at 45 feet. My transmitter was likely the largest QRP made. 3.5 Watt pep SSB, 2.1 watt CW,AM,FSK etc. The front end of my FRT39B.
Good conditions I would chat with Indiana and Australia from Redondo Beach, so yea, the antenna is a key player.
I could do the same with the front end on an FRT 24A (little brother to the 39)
Start with resonant elements, matching to the feed line, and properly coupled to the radio. Height for best departure angle and it works.

 

[merlin]

You want more power, the FRT 39B will spit 6 KW out, all day long.(Navy runs them 3-4 KW for RTTY)
The FRT24A 3KW PEP/1.5KW AM. Both rated continuous duty.
The driver drawer in the 39 is about equal to the ETO Alpha 77. same for the whole 24A (same final)

 

[Bologna_sammiges4me]

Im having a terrible time trying to setup a dipole on the balcony of my apartment located on the fourth floor which is also a dead spot.
Luckily i still dont have my new apartment furnished with nothing more than a tv a few milk crates and toats makes me want to ask the supervisor what are my chances of being switched to another unit preferrably on the 12th floor or highest available that i just might pay for the switch if the rent stays the same.
Ive had my cb/ham radio station since childhood better than 30 years its just significant me that cannot be without frequency.

 

[FPR1981]

I have to say though.......... if you idea of economizing is to "cut corners" on coax.... as in chase down the cheapest you can possibly get.... you are hurting yourself. Not as much in mobile (you only have 18' or less!) but in base.

People fight over the TOP END cables now as to whether the difference really MAKES any difference. I get that....
But if you go dirt cheap...... the losses will eat you alive.
When you only have 4 watts tops...... the better the coax.... the MORE of that power will get to the antenna.
"crap coax" will hurt the finest of antennas.

Put some money in coax!!!!

I do agree that good coax makes a world of difference, particularly at lengths of 50 feet or longer.

 

[FPR1981]

You will see much more than 2 or 3dB comparing horizontal to vertical. 20dB is a commonly used number for cross pol degradation but it depends mostly on reflective surroundings. If you remove that like an antenna pointed up to a satellite, mid 30dB and up to 40dB cross pol attenuation is normal. Slanting a dipole at 45 degrees will give you exactly 3dB degradation with no reflective surfaces around and that's what to expect from an inverted V dipole talking to a vertical.

So, is my takeaway lesson here that a single dipole will always perform best vertically, and in particular because most other stations use a vertically polarized antenna?

 

[KEWB-N1EXA]

I have to say though.......... if you idea of economizing is to "cut corners" on coax.... as in chase down the cheapest you can possibly get.... you are hurting yourself. Not as much in mobile (you only have 18' or less!) but in base.

People fight over the TOP END cables now as to whether the difference really MAKES any difference. I get that....
But if you go dirt cheap...... the losses will eat you alive.
When you only have 4 watts tops...... the better the coax.... the MORE of that power will get to the antenna.
"crap coax" will hurt the finest of antennas.

Put some money in coax!!!!

So my RG6 75 ohm is bad ? Seems to work just fine...Now I would not put 100 Watts down it !
The guy is running 4 watts on CB.

Peter N1EXA