GMRS: Use of Part 90 radios on Part 95

[Knoxradio]

§95.335 Operation of non-certified transmitters prohibited.
Except as provided in paragraph (a) of this section, no person shall operate a transmitter in any Personal Radio Service unless it is a certified transmitter; that is, a transmitter of a type which has obtained a grant of equipment certification for that service, pursuant to part 2, subpart J of this chapter

(a)Exceptions.*Under certain exceptions, non-certified Personal Radio Servicetransmitters, or*transmitters*certified for use in the land mobile radio services may be operated. Any such exceptions applicable to stations in a Personal Radio Service are set forth in the subpart governing that specific service.*See e.g.,*§§ 95.735*and 95.1735.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

So to summarize what some of you are saying, just because the chances of being caught are low it is okay to willfully engage in illegal behavior?

Morals and ethics, morals and ethics.

I think most reading this thread are trying to remain within the SPIRIT of the law. It is increasingly difficult due to the limited number of properly certified radios being marketed. I have this dilemma assembling a repeater. I can find certified transceivers that are 20 year old, but finding a 50W continuous duty power amplifier that has been certified for Part 95A is nearly impossible. I can see the discussion with the FCC inspector. "Here is my Frankenstein, it meets all FCC performance criteria of GMRS.

A far much bigger problem are those operating GMRS without a proper license. That is a bit harder to "splain away".

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

(a)Exceptions.*Under certain exceptions, non-certified Personal Radio Servicetransmitters, or*transmitters*certified for use in the land mobile radio services may be operated. Any such exceptions applicable to stations in a Personal Radio Service are set forth in the subpart governing that specific service.*See e.g.,*§§ 95.735*and 95.1735.

95.1735 seems to be a placeholder. Hmmm, I can think of some words!

PROPOSED RULE SECTION:

§ 95.1735 GMRS equipment certification
exception.
Notwithstanding the general
requirement of § 95.335, a Part 90 certified
transmitter programmed such that it fully complies with
the applicable technical requirements in
this subpart may be operated in the
GMRS band. This exception does not apply
for transmitter types where any
control, switch or other type of
adjustment—which, when manipulated,
can result in a violation of the rules—
is accessible to the user.

 

[RogueSteward]

(a)Exceptions.*Under certain exceptions, non-certified Personal Radio Servicetransmitters, or*transmitters*certified for use in the land mobile radio services may be operated. Any such exceptions applicable to stations in a Personal Radio Service are set forth in the subpart governing that specific service.*See e.g.,*§§ 95.735*and 95.1735.

I don't believe 95.735 counts as an exception when we are considering GMRS and FRS. The exception is for RCRS, Radio Control Radio Service. Now, on the other hand, as RFI-EMI-GUY pointed out, the exception for uncertified devices under GMRS use 95.1735 is listed, however it is blank. Maybe that rule is being written! Let's get on it!

 

[bill4long]

95.1735 seems to be a placeholder. Hmmm, I can think of some words!

PROPOSED RULE SECTION:

§ 95.1735 GMRS equipment certification
exception.
Notwithstanding the general
requirement of § 95.335, a Part 90 certified
transmitter programmed such that it fully complies with
the applicable technical requirements in
this subpart may be operated in the
GMRS band. This exception does not apply
for transmitter types where any
control, switch or other type of
adjustment—which, when manipulated,
can result in a violation of the rules—
is accessible to the user.

+1000

 

[mmckenna]

Is this a "I can't find a new Part 95 certified radio" or is it a "I don't want to pay for a new Part 95 certified radio"?

Randomly pulled the FCC ID for a Kenwood NX-800, FCC OET shows it has Part 95A.
You can buy these radios new right now, 45 watt, etc.
The software will not let you do 5KHz channels unless you contact Kenwood and get a W-license, which cost (last time I checked) $75.00.

So, they are out there, they are available, just not "cheap" for a new one. But from the tone of this thread, I'm guessing/hoping you guys are not stuck on the "cheap" part of this.

A quick search showed these Kenwood radios having valid 95A certifications:
NX-800 mobile
NX-300 portable
TK-3180 portable
TK-8180 mobile
TKR-840 repeater
Probably more, but that should be enough. Both the NX-800 and NX-300 are current production radios, well proven, lots of support, etc. You can even find them on the used market for a reasonable price.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Is this a "I can't find a new Part 95 certified radio" or is it a "I don't want to pay for a new Part 95 certified radio"?

Randomly pulled the FCC ID for a Kenwood NX-800, FCC OET shows it has Part 95A.
You can buy these radios new right now, 45 watt, etc.
The software will not let you do 5KHz channels unless you contact Kenwood and get a W-license, which cost (last time I checked) $75.00.

So, they are out there, they are available, just not "cheap" for a new one. But from the tone of this thread, I'm guessing/hoping you guys are not stuck on the "cheap" part of this.

A quick search showed these Kenwood radios having valid 95A certifications:
NX-800 mobile
NX-300 portable
TK-3180 portable
TK-8180 mobile
TKR-840 repeater
Probably more, but that should be enough. Both the NX-800 and NX-300 are current production radios, well proven, lots of support, etc. You can even find them on the used market for a reasonable price.

Nice radio for the (used) price. What is the street price new?

Q1) Are you saying you need a W license for 25 KHz channels?

Q2) What FCC ID are you searching for this part 95A 16K0F3E capability? I am not finding it. You would do a great service by listing the Part 95A certifications for the radios you have listed.

These from the catalog sheet don't indicate any Part 95A 16K0F3E compliance:

https://fccid.io/K44378704
https://fccid.io/K44378705

From this catalog sheet:

http://comms.kenwood.com/common/pdf/download/09_NX-700-800Brochure.pdf

Can you provide those FCC ID's that show a grant with 95A?

While we are on the subject, has anyone ever seen a grant for the Bridgecom repeater that shows 95A? I know I haven't, though the company assures me....

 

[bill4long]

Good info, mmckenna

As for HTs, Baofeng has a Part 95 GMRS certified UV-82 variant for about $50, called BTECH GMRS-V1.
I own one of those and they work nicely.

https://www.amazon.com/BTECH-GMRS-V1-Repeater-136-174-99mhz-400-520-99mhz/dp/B01LWOLZ8L

 

[bill4long]

Also, Midland has a MXT400 GMRS 40w mobile. (Approx $250)

This guy used one as a repeater transmitter. (You can use an receiver you want. Receiver don't have to be GMRS certified. GM-300 would do nicely.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uF__j1nxitM

I would probably use a used Kenwood, myself. Cheaper. Much cheaper.

 

[bill4long]

has anyone ever seen a grant for the Bridgecom repeater that shows 95A? I know I haven't, though the company assures me....

Have them provide you with the FCCID and verify it yourself here:

https://www.fcc.gov/oet/ea/fccid

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

The Midland radios do not produce full deviation as permitted in GMRS, they are just FRS/GMRS combos with a power amp.

The Cheap Chinese Radios are not much better.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Have them provide you with the FCCID and verify it yourself here:

https://www.fcc.gov/oet/ea/fccid

I would if they would. Sadly they have not.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

 

[bill4long]

I would if they would. Sadly they have not.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

Did you ask them? By law, the FCCID "type acceptance" ID must be present on any transmitter/transceiver sold in the USA. The FCCID is not a secret or anything. If they won't provide you one, they are probably feeding you a line. They may be ignorant of the Part 90 requirement for GMRS and their UHF repeaters are OK if they locked them down to GMRS frequencies and limits. In any case, there's no good reason why they shouldn't provide the FCCID for any unit they sell (unless they are FOS.)

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Did you ask them? By law, the FCCID "type acceptance" ID must be present on any transmitter/transceiver sold in the USA. The FCCID is not a secret or anything. If they won't provide you one, they are probably feeding you a line. They may be ignorant of the Part 90 requirement for GMRS and their TYT-based repeaters are OK. In any case, there's no good reason why they shouldn't provide the FCCID for any unit they sell (unless they are FOS.)

I hesitate to say they are FOS, but finding any GMRS certification on their website or FCC OET reveals nothing in Part 95A for the repeater.

I asked a rep at a ham fest booth if certified for GMRS and he said yes, I did not press him for the FCC ID at the fest. But my research reveals nothing.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

 

[bill4long]

I hesitate to say they are FOS, but finding any GMRS certification on their website or FCC OET reveals nothing in Part 95A for the repeater.

I asked a rep at a ham fest booth if certified for GMRS and he said yes, I did not press him for the FCC ID at the fest. But my research reveals nothing.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

Well, I emailed Bridgecom a few minutes ago, and they happily supplied me with the FCCID for their GMRS repeater (or the transmitter within the repeater) within a few minutes. He said it is O99TM-8402A. But an FCC search on that ID yields nothing, with or without the dash, or splitting the ID in half. I will see what he says.

https://www.fcc.gov/oet/ea/fccid

EDIT: I did manage to find it.

 

[bill4long]

Actually, the O99TM-8402A applies to this transceiver, which I assume they are using as the transmitter in their repeater.

https://gov.fccid.io/O99TM-8402A

https://www.bridgecomsystems.com/products/tm-8000-series-mobile-radio

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Well, I emailed Bridgecom a few minutes ago, and they happily supplied me with the FCCID for their GMRS repeater within a few minutes. He said it is O99TM-8402A. But an FCC search on that ID yields nothing, with or without the dash, or splitting the ID in half. I will see what he says.

https://www.fcc.gov/oet/ea/fccid

I did a simple Google search and from fcc.io to link to the FCC OET , I see a Grant for a part 90 10K5F3E emission. Hardly wideband GMRS.

This looks like the ID I searched some months ago.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

 

[bill4long]

I did a simple Google search and from fcc.io to link to the FCC OET , I see a Grant for a part 90 10K5F3E emission. Hardly wideband GMRS.

This looks like the ID I searched some months ago.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

None of the FCC docs for that radio mention 95A, only Part 90. Hmm. I fired an email back to him (Chuck Kraly), let's see what he says about it.

 

[mmckenna]

Nice radio for the (used) price. What is the street price new?

List price for a new NX-800H (30 watt) $725.00. The NX-800HK (45 watt) $850.00
Easy to get something lower than list price.

The NX-300 portables are $684 for the basic keypad and $734 for the full keypad, list prices.

TK-3180 is $560 list and the TK-8180 is $604 for the 30 watt and $735 for the 45 watt, list.

Q1) Are you saying you need a W license for 25 KHz channels?

On the UHF models, yes. They are narrow band across the board. On the VHF models, if you wanted to use on on 2 meters, they will do wide from 136-150.1

Q2) What FCC ID are you searching for this part 95A 16K0F3E capability? I am not finding it. You would do a great service by listing the Part 95A certifications for the radios you have listed.

NX-300 = ALH378500 = https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/tcb/repo..._id=htp5xmdwJXz5oSNen96O/A==&fcc_id=ALH378500
NX-800 = K44378700 (30 watt) K44378702 (45 watt) = https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/tcb/repo..._id=EEu279uMCW03W5nvpmk6ZQ==&fcc_id=K44378700 https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/tcb/repo..._id=SKxE/0j7JzcXoWTvXnw+bw==&fcc_id=K44378702
TK-3180 = ALH37333110 = https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/tcb/repo...d=1ipBVkldMGhDuW3Zmoybgw==&fcc_id=ALH37333110
TK-8180 = K4437313110 (30 watt) K4437313210 (45 watt) = https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/tcb/repo...d=mQJdXuk4NgS25wdTS+jTOA==&fcc_id=K4437313110 https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/tcb/repo...d=2htwbvTNWxlzdajKZ5ggAw==&fcc_id=K4437313210
TKR-850 = ALH31113110 = https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/repo...d=cJmO5ihXxlnd1a6ufTBAoA==&fcc_id=ALH31113110

These from the catalog sheet don't indicate any Part 95A 16K0F3E compliance:

https://fccid.io/K44378704
https://fccid.io/K44378705

From this catalog sheet:

http://comms.kenwood.com/common/pdf/download/09_NX-700-800Brochure.pdf

That's a newer grant than the one I used. Same radio, different certification dates. So it looks like Kenwood changed something and put the radio in for new certification with a new FCC ID.

Can you provide those FCC ID's that show a grant with 95A?

See above.

While we are on the subject, has anyone ever seen a grant for the Bridgecom repeater that shows 95A? I know I haven't, though the company assures me....

I got saddled with a couple of those at work. I lost my photos I took when I was working on them. I do know they had TecNet mobiles inside. Running those TecNet mobiles through OET shows -NO- 95A certification, only Part 90.

However, if you run the FCC ID for the Bridgecom repeater itself, which has a completely different FCC ID than the individual mobiles, you do get 95A:
https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/tcb/repo...id=M+a/Y/A/8YvcfWlT+VYtEg==&fcc_id=SK4MPTM40U
https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/tcb/repo...id=M+a/Y/A/8YvcfWlT+VYtEg==&fcc_id=SK4MPTM40U

 

[bill4long]

However, if you run the FCC ID for the Bridgecom repeater itself, which has a completely different FCC ID than the individual mobiles, you do get 95A:

Thanks. I guess the guy at Bridgecom who I've been emailing doesn't realize that. He provided me with the TecNet mobile that they use inside the transmitter, which is cert 90 only.

Our exchange:

Question:

What is the FCCID type acceptance ID for the BCR-40U repeater? Thanks

Reply:

O99TM-8402A

Chuck Kraly, K0XM

BridgeCom Systems, Inc

http://www.youtube.com/c/BridgeComSystemsyoutubechannel

Customer Service and Technical Support

102 MO 92 Hwy, Ste C

Smithville, MO 64089

816-532-8451

Twoops!