Hearing Las Vegas PD in SoCal?

Status
Not open for further replies.

brandon

Member
Database Admin
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
3,516
Location
SoCal
I am shocked but I am picking up Las Vegas PD on 158.850 PL 173.8 from Riverside County.

At first I couldn't believe it but I decided to test by listening to an online radio in Las Vegas and it's hearing the same thing I am.

I can't explain it except there must be some really good tropo tonight! I find it amazing considering there are plenty of hills and huge mountains between me and Las Vegas.

Anyone else hear it?

I'm going to try their other freqs and see what I hear.
 

brandon

Member
Database Admin
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
3,516
Location
SoCal
That is incredible. I would never expect to hear them from SoCal...especially where I'm at surrounded by hills to my northeast.

So far that is the only freq I am hearing activity on.

Now I'm real tempted to go up on some mountain top and see what it's like :)
 

PJH

Member
Joined
Aug 23, 2002
Messages
3,622
Depends on the regional and space/magnetic weather.

At my old PD in Connecticut I would get CHP out of LA (42.46) in the summer on the scanner at the PD with a generic scanner antenna on the side of the building...and we were in a river valley.

This is normally called "DXing". Before 9/11, FDNY Manhattan had excellent range (250watt radio was on top of the WTC). I was able to get them all the way down into Durham NC at times when I was down that way. VHF and VHF-Lo can really be fun.
 

PJH

Member
Joined
Aug 23, 2002
Messages
3,622
Forgot to add...

To see how good the conditions may be, scan some railroad channels, 52.525 (6M ham calling channel). These tend to be good indicators when the band is "opening up". When I get home, I'll post a website that has a pridiction map of this stuff.
 

SCPD

QRT
Joined
Feb 24, 2001
Messages
0
Location
Virginia
We are talking about two different things here. The lower frequencies are subject to refraction in the ionosphere more often than higher frequencies are. Refraction is commonly called skip. The amount of ionization present very high in the atmosphere affects "skip". At times it is great enough to cause skip on 2 meter and slightly lower frequencies, although this is not common. The greater the ionization the higher the frequency at which radio waves can be bent or refracted back towards earth. The highest frequency at which a radio wave can be bent back towards earth is called the maximum usable frequency or MUF. Generally ionization is greatest during sunspot maximum periods.

Since we are in a minimum period of ionization due to the current state of the sunspot cycle, it is most likely that the Las Vegas traffic reception is due to tropospheric bending or ducting. The MUF right now is fairly low. Ducting depends on warmer air overlaying colder air, a temperature inversion, to allow VHF/UHF frequencies to be carried long distances. This occurs far lower in the atmosphere than refraction in the ionosphere does. Ducting is usually a more temporary condition than ionization and subject to less predictable variables, which makes it very exciting when it happens.
This said, even though we are near the low spot of the 11 year susnpot cycle which influences the upper atmosphere, brief periods of solar flaring can have affects on how far radio waves will travel. Such an event occured last fall (about late October 2004) and "disruptions to communications" was reported on most popular media. Since the activity cited here seems to be from one area of the country to another area of the country and is apparently not widespread, it is most likely ducting is responsible.

My best skip reception ever, was hearing the mobile side of a communication between an ambulance and a hospital in Portland, Maine during mid morning in New Mexico in 1979. I could hear the siren in the background and the air horn being used. My best ducting reception was a ham two meter repeater in Utah a few years back. The condition only lasted 15 minutes or less. I did not seem to be able to transmit back and key up the repeater.

Hearing LV metro PD from the L.A. Basin must have been very exciting.
 

PJH

Member
Joined
Aug 23, 2002
Messages
3,622
Yeah, I was trying to keep it a little simple :)

Working at the PD one summer about 5 years ago, we were not able to use portables for about 7 hours due to all sorts of fun stuff. Everytime someone use it, it would bring in about 100 different stations in simutaiously. The next night we played the tapes back and heard references from CA, TX, ND, and a just about everywhere else. It was pretty cool. Hearing CHP though in the summer was neat. Thinking it was Mass State Police (same LB channel) I was hearing references to the 101 Freeway and was like... Hey, I know where that is (seeing I use to live in CA for awhile).

Either way, neat stuff.
 

2wayfreq

Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2004
Messages
540
Location
NM Kirk City
Henderson PD should be one of the only LE agencies on the TRS. LVPD should still be VHF conventional for now. They might have future integration plans though. Anyways, back to the 158.850, that is thier car-to-car you are hearing?
 

Mick

Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
2,538
Location
Western U.S.
It appears to be listed differently at some Web sites:

http://www.qsl.net/n7xsd/freq-Las-Vegas-NV.html
158.8500 FM F-15, Rural (173.8 CTCSS, 155.250 input)

http://www.fordyce.org/scanning/frequencies/travel/lasvegas.html
158.850 Rural (Blue Diamond, Sandy Valley) F-9
158.850 Rural (Glendale, Logandale, Overton, Moapa) F-10
158.850 Rural (Laughlin Resident officers, Searchlight) F-11

http://www.radioreference.com/modules.php?name=RR&ctid=1745
158.85 155.225 KDV745 RM 173.8 PL 15 Car-to-Car FM

2wayfreq said:
Henderson PD should be one of the only LE agencies on the TRS. LVPD should still be VHF conventional for now. They might have future integration plans though. Anyways, back to the 158.850, that is thier car-to-car you are hearing?
 

brandon

Member
Database Admin
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
3,516
Location
SoCal
Thanks for the replies everyone.

This was my first real experience with VHF skip above 55 MHz. I've had plenty of fun with VHF lowband back in 1999-2001 season. Plenty of fire department comms on 33 MHz freqs, and loads of law enforcement traffic in the 39-40 MHz range..I would also hear fire departments up in the 44 MHz area and 6 meters SSB on good days.
I also enjoy E season every summer. Nothing beats driving through west Texas and listening to the local CHP office :) I've also had the experience in Utah one night listening to just about every CHP division in CA... Golden Gate all the way down to Border.

Regarding the LVPD freq, I am thinking Rural Dispatch is more likely. I heard units talking to "Control" which I assume is their dispatch center. I have not heard anything on the freq since the other night (except for a local repeater keying up). Soon I hope to get a log periodic up and will do more testing. Scanning through 153-154 MHz I heard some weak signals not sure where from.

153.875 Unknown fire dept. Online listings show Inyo County Fire but I cannot confirm. That would be another amazing catch if it was indeed!

153.605 77.0 Repeater ID


Thx again!
 

Mick

Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
2,538
Location
Western U.S.
I hear the 153.605R 77.0 here in Or. Co. really well, it's Southern Calif. Gas Company, input is 158.235 77.0 Hz.

brandon said:
Thanks for the replies everyone.

153.875 Unknown fire dept. Online listings show Inyo County Fire but I cannot confirm. That would be another amazing catch if it was indeed!

153.605 77.0 Repeater ID

Thx again!
 

brandon

Member
Database Admin
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
3,516
Location
SoCal
Thx.... I figured that one was a utility freq since I could not find it listed anywhere.
 

SCPD

QRT
Joined
Feb 24, 2001
Messages
0
Location
Virginia
153.875 Unknown fire dept. Online listings show Inyo County Fire but I cannot confirm. That would be another amazing catch if it was indeed!

153.875 is known as "South County Fire" in Inyo County. The northern part of the county only has the Bishop Fire Department and Bishop Rural Fire Department (same people and mostly the same equipment) and they are dispatched by Bishop PD (Bishop 2) on 154.430. South County Fire is dispatched by the Inyo County Sheriffs dispatch center (Control or Control 1). It is not a frequency with a lot of activity.

The distance to the repeater on 153.875, which is located on Mazourka Peak just northeast of Independence, is just a little bit further than the repeaters on the Las Vegas Metro Rural frequency. Both are close as far as direction. There isn't a lot of VHF stuff down your way so the reverse path doesn't seem to be appearing up here. I should put the base scanner on search for awhile today as we have some cold air presently.

When I lived in a remote area of New Mexico from 1978 to 1981 I picked up LASO, LAFD, and CHP almost every night. We were in a sunspot maximum then. My best catch was hearing the LAFD engine a friend of mine worked on. He wasn't the captain so I didn't hear his voice, but it was neat to let him know about it several years later when I returned to LA for a visit.

I have the tone guard feature programmed on my CHP frequencies, but have been hearing what sounds like some interference lately. I wonder if there is some skip causing it. I doubt it as we are just coming out of a sunspot minimum. Just because there is some ducting doesn't necessarily mean we will have skiip at the same time.
 
Last edited:

brandon

Member
Database Admin
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
3,516
Location
SoCal
Thanks for the info on Inyo County. I'm going to monitor that freq to see what else I hear.
Back to the LVPD topic, I am hearing them again tonight (158.850) a little weaker than before though.
 

RadioWave2005

Member
Joined
Jul 15, 2005
Messages
82
What does "PL" mean?

I'd like to ask a stupid question-what does "PL" mean and how do I use it on my Pro-96?

Thanks Pros. I am a novice here.
 

SCPD

QRT
Joined
Feb 24, 2001
Messages
0
Location
Virginia
PL is a trademark name used by Motorola meaning "Private Line". There are other names used by different manufacturers and I can't remember all of them except for code guard. The words "tone squelch" are used widely in the communications industry to avoid use of trademark names. The name which describes the actual process is CTCSS or Continuous Tone Coded Subaudible Squelch.

CTCSS is fairly simple. A signal is added to the transmission at frequencies between 67 and 254 Hz or cycles per second. Sound at these very low frequencies is extremely difficult for most people to hear. Receivers have a filter which will not allow the processed signal to go to the audio phase of the radio unless it is accompanied by a tone of a given frequency. In the business service, frequencies are often shared by many businesses. The other businesses don't want to hear the traffic of the other users so a tone is selected by each business. This tone transmitted along with the signal of their radios and each radio is programmed with the same tone. It does not allow every users to transmit at the same time as that puts two or more FM signals transmitting on the same frequency at the same time. That is why a "monitor" button, which opens up the squelch to all signals is built into the radio. Mobile radios are often installed with a switch in the microphone which turns off the tone filter enabling the user to listen for any other transmissions when the mike is lifted. This feature does not open up the squelch completly (similar to turning the dial on your scanner unti you hear the rushing sound constantly) but turns off the filter so all transmissions, not matter what the tone frequency is, will be sent to the audio portion of the radio.

There seems to be an impression created by makers and sellers of family radio (FRS) that with a certain tone, full privacy is insured for the users. Many of these radios do not have a monitor button and since the user hears no other signals this impression is made stronger. Manufacturers claim 14 channels with 38 codes and then call them capable of using 532 voice circuits or some such rot. I was out on a hike one day and heard a couple of people talking on FRS radios while one was climbing a very signficant mountain. I had my scanner in the tone search mode and then programmed that into my GMRS (General Mobile Radio Service which requires a license which the majority of purchasers do not get) radio and called him up to get futher details on the conditions of the climb. I was planning to climb this peak soon and wanted to know how difficult a certain portion of the climb was where some snow and ice can make the trip a little difficult. From his reaction I could tell he was feeling like me talking to him was not possbile and might have been thinking someone just broke into a call he was making on a telephone.

On your PRO-96 you have several mode settings AM, FM, ED, MO, CT, and DC if I remember them correctly. The CT is CTCSS and the DC is CDCSS or Continuous Digital Code Subaudible Squelch or Digital Code Squelch. which instead of having 40-50 analog tones has dozens. The advantage of the digital tones is more accurate recognition of the tones and less false detection than analog tones causing the audio to be passed along from signals with different tones. These two different tone systems are only used on conventional systems, so don't worry about them on trunked systems.

If you program frequencies on the 96 with the CT or DC mode and don't know if a tone is being used, the radio will scan for any tones on the frequency. If you look at a lot of frequency lists, there are numbers like 103.5, 141.3, or 023, 413. The first two in my example are analog tones and the last two a digital tones. When you program in the tones, you can reduce interference from nearby strong tramsmissions on other frequencies. More an more communications systems are using tone squelch on their frequencies to reduce interference, which grows as the number of electronic devices, especially wireless ones, grows.

In some cases public safety frequencies are shared by many agencies, especially on county and city administrative systesm which provide communications for animal control, building inspectors, trash collection, waste water service, parking enforcement, etc. Each service will have a tone unique to that department. So if you don't want to hear trash pickup traffic and only want to listen to parking enforcement you can program the tone for that service and only hear them. If you can't find listings which include each services tone, just enter nothing after selecting the mode and the radio will automatically scan for tones on that frequency. See pages 42-45 of you owners manual and it is explained quite nicely. You then listen to the frequency a lot and note the content of the traffic for each tone displayed and eventually figure out which of them correspond to eeach service. If you know the tones but want to listen to all the services you can look at the display, note the tone being broadcast, and know which service is talking. For a particular system I listen to I have programmed a dozen different channels all with the same frequency but with different tones. I programmed each channel's alphanumerics with the label for that service so I have an instant display of what service is talking. I'm in a rural area where there aren't a lot of frequencies in use so eating up the memory in my scanners is not a major issue.

Another use of tones is to be able to select one repeater on a system with multiple conventional repeaters. During my career with the Forest Service on four different National Forests each Forest had multiple repeaters for its area, some of which overlapped in coverage. In order to select only one repeater for use at one time, we had an external tone box with a dial and each number on the dial represented a different tone and thus a different repeater. On some systems the tone transmitted on the repeater input frequency was also transmitted on its output. On some systems all the repeaters transmit the same tone on the output regardless of the tone used to select that repeater. If each repeater has a unique tone on the output, you can program several channels with the same frequency and different tones, as in my example in the last paragraph and be able to tell which repeater is being used when you look at the radio. Pretty slick I think considering my first scanner had eight channels and to change frequecies you had to take the radio case off, pull out a crystal with a pair of needle nose, and then insert another crystal which cost $5 and took 3 weeks to come in on a special order. You didn't do much listening for just curiosity on all sorts of frequencies.

Before CTCSS and CDCSS were developed, systems had different input frequencies for each repeater, all of which had the same output frequency. To select a particular repeater you selected the appropriate channel in your radio and all of them had the same receive frequency and with different transmit frequencies. That is a very inefficient use of the available frequenices. The first repeater system I used did not have subadible tones but audible tones in the 1000 - 2000 Hz range which were selected on an external box added to the radio. These tones were called burst tones because their length was fairly short each time a radio was keyed up. The disadvantage was not being able to distinquish the constant tones you were hearing all day, being used to select repeaters, from the tones used to make announcements and alert people to a dispatch. After a full regular shift or a long shift of 12-36 hours listening to all the beeping drove you crazy. Trying to get work done in an office where you had a base radio was diffucult and if you turned the radio down in order to stop all the beeping you might miss someone calling you or the ranger station.

My first National Forest didn't have any repeaters or remote bases except for the remote on a mountain near the town the dispatcher was in. If you were out of range of that remote base, you had to call a lookout tower and relay the voice traffic through them. Every message then, took at least twice as long to complete because it had to be repeated at least once, in the best of conditions, and more if someone in the chain did not repeat the message correctly. Some Forests were more advanced and you called the lookout to manually turn on the repeater located at the lookout. When you finished you told the lookout to turn it off. If the lookout wasn't staffed, as in the case of winter or very wet conditions during the summer, you were out of luck. I started my career in 1973 but the radio system was current technology for about 1950 or older, so I got to use some "old timer" equipment. We had "pack sets" which could have served as anchors for an aircraft carrier so when you went to a fire not reachable by vehicle, your shoulders got sore just carrying the radio. After we used every battery left in the world for these radios the system was replaced and we had repeaters. High tech!

OK, I hope you understand what PL is and how to use it on your PRO-96. I tend to tell people how to build a watch when they just asked the time so excuse me for the length of this explanation.

P.S. There are no stupid questions in my book, except for those that are not asked.
 

Duster

Supposedly Retired...
Database Admin
Joined
May 16, 2003
Messages
798
Location
Northwest KS
Mick said:
It appears to be listed differently at some Web sites:

http://www.qsl.net/n7xsd/freq-Las-Vegas-NV.html
158.8500 FM F-15, Rural (173.8 CTCSS, 155.250 input)

http://www.fordyce.org/scanning/frequencies/travel/lasvegas.html
158.850 Rural (Blue Diamond, Sandy Valley) F-9
158.850 Rural (Glendale, Logandale, Overton, Moapa) F-10
158.850 Rural (Laughlin Resident officers, Searchlight) F-11

http://www.radioreference.com/modules.php?name=RR&ctid=1745
158.85 155.225 KDV745 RM 173.8 PL 15 Car-to-Car FM


This is LV Metro's Rural frequency. Your database lists are correct, because they use different repeaters for different parts of Clark County. Moapa/Glendale is north/northeast of LV, Blue Diamond/Sandy Valley is southwest of LV, and Laughlin/Searchlight is south of LV...all of them with big hills between them.

When I was the resident deputy in Baker CA for San Bernardino SO, I had the Rural Channel Net in my radios because the state line runs right down the center of Sandy Valley, so I worked with the Metro resident officer all the time.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top