Help with understanding 700/800, trunk system and...

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Fire125

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Hi guys,
I don't have that muchh information about MPSCS. Can someone tell me how it works and what are differences with conventional?
Also I have a question about the radio that I should use. Our department is working on 700/800 patched to oakland county. And we have the vhf conventional channel as a backup radio frequency.
What radio I need if I want to program it with 700/800 trunk system? I already have ht1250 and xpr7550 both vhf.
 

GeneseeCoMI

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Hi guys,
I don't have that muchh information about MPSCS. Can someone tell me how it works and what are differences with conventional?
Also I have a question about the radio that I should use. Our department is working on 700/800 patched to oakland county. And we have the vhf conventional channel as a backup radio frequency.
What radio I need if I want to program it with 700/800 trunk system? I already have ht1250 and xpr7550 both vhf.

There are several differences between conventional and trunking. Here's a general explanation of Trunking and here's how trunking systems work. The MPSCS is an APCO Project 25 Phase I Common Air Interface System. Here's details about APCO Project 25 and even more about Project 25 Common Air Interface.

Here's the link to the MPSCS database page

I hope this helps.
 
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n5ims

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Hi guys,
I don't have that muchh information about MPSCS. Can someone tell me how it works and what are differences with conventional?
Also I have a question about the radio that I should use. Our department is working on 700/800 patched to oakland county. And we have the vhf conventional channel as a backup radio frequency.
What radio I need if I want to program it with 700/800 trunk system? I already have ht1250 and xpr7550 both vhf.

I'll only address the "What radio" question since the conventional vs. trunking question has already been addressed. While part of the "What radio" question has also been addressed quite well (basically use a scanner, which is really the best answer generally), it appears that you are really asking about a radio that will not only receive, but also transmit. If you only need a receive solution, get a scanner. You'll save money, grief, and have the best chance of remain legal.

If you really have a need to transmit on the system you really need to address this in a legal and professional manner. The large systems, especially the state-wide ones like MPSCS, are very complex systems and have very strict rules on what radios and users are allowed on them. This is to protect the users and system from trouble due to radios being improperly programed, cloned radios, and radios that may not be fully compatible. They also have ways to "kill" unauthorized radios that use the system so that's an incentive to do it right the first time (you really want an expensive radio that was killed and then just an expensive paper weight?).

Start out by talking to your department manager about what you need to purchase (or even if you're allowed to purchase one yourself). This would need to include all of the specific features and options required for use on the desired system. Often these systems have authorized suppliers that both know what is allowed and what is required on that radio. You may be forced to purchase from one of those suppliers to have your radio allowed on the system. It won't be something as simple as "You need a XTS-5000 and there are plenty on e-Bay".

Once you have the radio with all the correct options, you'll need to request that it be allowed on the system. There's paperwork required and most likely a fee (perhaps a monthly fee) to place the radio on the approved list and be able to use it on the system. If you order it from an approved supplier, they may handle this for you, but check to be sure.

Once you have the radio and the approval for it to be on the system, you'll need it to be programmed. Often this must be done by an authorized programmer for the system and use a standardized template based on your agency's needs. This may be a group that runs the system for your state or may be an authorized company contracted by the system for this purpose. Again, that authorized supplier may handle the programming as well, but again, check to make sure.

Although I mention this last, it should be the first thing you do officially. Get your permission IN WRITING prior to placing a personal radio on the system. This permission should be from not only your agency (who will be responsible for you as a user and for any fees) but from the agency that runs the system. This will protect you if they kill your radio in error and make sure that YOU covered YOURSELF from any issues that may crop up since this permission should include the rules you must follow as a user with a personal radio on the system. This is especially important if your state (as many do) has laws protecting the public safety radio systems from "unauthorized" users. A little grief now is much better than a huge fine and/or jail time that may result from being an "unauthorized" user.
 

Fire125

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I appreciate it guys. They were helpfull. One more question. If i'm not wrong, they ard patching all the frequencies on vhf and uhf (analog or digital) too, what about radios like HT, CMD, XPR,... Do I need permission for these too?
 

n5ims

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I appreciate it guys. They were helpfull. One more question. If i'm not wrong, they ard patching all the frequencies on vhf and uhf (analog or digital) too, what about radios like HT, CMD, XPR,... Do I need permission for these too?

Yes, on the system that they directly work on (you can ignore any patching since that agreement has already been negotiated). If you operate using someone else's license, you need their permission (in writing for your own protection) to do so. A license is granted with certain restrictions, power levels, frequencies, coverage areas, number of radios, etc., so this permission will allow them to make sure that they remain legal and operate within those restrictions.

Sure it's often easy to use a rogue radio on a conventional analog frequency and never get caught. It's also possible that your radio could put that licensee in serious legal trouble with the FCC with fines that may reach $10,000 per incident. Do you really want to be in the position to explain why it was YOUR radio that cost them those huge fines?
 

Fire125

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Yes, on the system that they directly work on (you can ignore any patching since that agreement has already been negotiated). If you operate using someone else's license, you need their permission (in writing for your own protection) to do so. A license is granted with certain restrictions, power levels, frequencies, coverage areas, number of radios, etc., so this permission will allow them to make sure that they remain legal and operate within those restrictions.

Sure it's often easy to use a rogue radio on a conventional analog frequency and never get caught. It's also possible that your radio could put that licensee in serious legal trouble with the FCC with fines that may reach $10,000 per incident. Do you really want to be in the position to explain why it was YOUR radio that cost them those huge fines?

Even if the radio is on RX mode only?
 

buddrousa

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Most all radios that work the new Trunking Systems can be killed. These systems charge per radio and they issue radio id's per radio and no 2 radio id's are the same. You are not going to get a radio to true trunk track these systems with out them logging onto the system. If it is a system that a scanner can track you are better off unless you have permission to have a radio on the system.
 

n5ims

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Even if the radio is on RX mode only?

Receive only is fine, especially if you use a scanner or other radio that doesn't have the capability to transmit. Once you add the ability to transmit, you must make very sure that your "receive only" programming is 100% receive only. On conventional systems, this often is pretty easy to accomplish if you really understand your programming software and take the necessary steps to program it correctly.

Once you add any type of trunking, you run the risk of your radio transmitting, even though you never press the transmit button (even if no microphone is attached, transmitting is possible). Many trunking systems automatically have a radio log into the system or notify the system when the channel is changed (just to name a few). It will transmit the login commands when the radio is turned on and transmit the channel affiliation commands when you simply change channels.

I believe you're asking about receive only on conventional channels with your above question so with correct programming you should be OK for receive only use there. A scanner is still a safer option, but your radio programmer should be able to safely program even a transceiver like the HT, XPR, and others to work in receive-only mode.
 

Fire125

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Receive only is fine, especially if you use a scanner or other radio that doesn't have the capability to transmit. Once you add the ability to transmit, you must make very sure that your "receive only" programming is 100% receive only. On conventional systems, this often is pretty easy to accomplish if you really understand your programming software and take the necessary steps to program it correctly.

Once you add any type of trunking, you run the risk of your radio transmitting, even though you never press the transmit button (even if no microphone is attached, transmitting is possible). Many trunking systems automatically have a radio log into the system or notify the system when the channel is changed (just to name a few). It will transmit the login commands when the radio is turned on and transmit the channel affiliation commands when you simply change channels.

I believe you're asking about receive only on conventional channels with your above question so with correct programming you should be OK for receive only use there. A scanner is still a safer option, but your radio programmer should be able to safely program even a transceiver like the HT, XPR, and others to work in receive-only mode.

Thank you for replaying. Ok now my question is I have 2 CDMs (one vhf and one uhf) and 1 TYT9800 on my car. I programmed the CDMs on the recieve only. Do I need any license for those radios?
I'm on conventional channel/ no trunking.
Is There a written standard or something that I can show to someone that as far as i have my radios on RX only, i'm not doing anything illegal?
 
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