How to extend FRS range?

[mjz55]

I'm trying to set up an emergency radio net for my community which is approx 1 square mile. We have quite a bit of elderly members and some physically disabled. We loose land-line, cable, electric and cell phones when a major storm comes through, leaving those in need defenseless. I purchased a bubble pack of motorola MR356's. I can get only about 1/2 mile from inside house to inside house. I'm not sure of the output power of the mr356 if it is max legal power or not.

What can I do to try to make this work? Will a table-top FRS "base station" radios that have whip antenna work?

I know I can try to get a "chain" going of frs's but may be too confusing for the elderly. I'd go with gmrs radios (my ht's reach the whole town) but I know nobody will get a license which is not legal. I thought of going CB radio but the ht's are too expensive.

I'm open for any ideas and suggestions.

 

[gewecke]

There's not much you can do, with out severely modifying the radio which would then make it illegal. for 500milliwatts to cover 1 square mile effectively, you would need a external uhf antenna with some gain, so FRS is not really a good choice for this.
MURS would have worked since external antennas could be used, but the cost would be a little more. Also MURS would not require your members to purchase a license to operate.

Placing your FRS radios on the highest floor in each location might work, but I doubt it.

73,
n9zas

 

[w2xq]

Wirelessly posted (Moto Droid Bionic: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; Intel Mac OS X 10_6_3; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.16 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0 Safari/533.16)

I don't know if this suggestion is feasible, but I use a UPS to keep a router and a cell phone "range extender" running during power outages. Unless a telephone line physically breaks, wouldn't a wired phone always work? I keep an $8 big button one around for jack testing etc. HTH.

 

[SteveC0625]

I don't know if this suggestion is feasible, but I use a UPS to keep a router and a cell phone "range extender" running during power outages. Unless a telephone line physically breaks, wouldn't a wired phone always work? I keep an $8 big button one around for jack testing etc. HTH.

The problem with relying on phones is twofold.

First, there are very few phones available these days that don't use a wall wort power supply. Lose power and the phone is useless. I have one phone instrument in the house that does not need a power supply specifically to be assured of phone service in a power outage.

The second problem doesn't appear unless it is an extended power outage. Many central offices for telcos use battery backups, not generators. So, when you have an extended power outage on your hands, the entire phone grid starts to fade away. We witnessed that big time in the Rochester, NY area in 1991 with a massive ice storm that left thousands of power poles down and power out in some neighborhoods for weeks and weeks.

Most cell phones need to be recharged every day or every other day so their usefulness, especially for housebound seniors, drops off if the power outage lasts more than 48 hours or less. (Remembering that people tend to pick up the phone and call each other during events like this so battery conservation is probably not achievable.)

The cellular network is actually more robust than the landline one now because they all have back up generators. (At least I have never seen a cell tower without a generator.) But the battery life of the individual phones is still a problem. And emergency responders are shying away from cell phones during major incidents because the general public jams up the phone systems, landline and cellular, almost immediately. The same issue would occur for the OP's intent.

For the OP, VHF MURS at 2 watts per unit would be a much better coverage solution for the first 24 to 48 hours, but then it could also fall victim to battery life. The FRS units, at least the ones I have, all use AA batteries which can (and should be) stockpiled at home. That actually might be an important consideration if coverage issues are resolved.

 

[methusaleh]

Is there a reason why you are only considering FRS, and not MURS?

As others have said above, MURS sounds perfect for your needs. The radios are not difficult to find, nor expensive. Just because they are not in bubble packs at every department store does not mean they are not user-friendly.

 

[mjz55]

First, I'm not sure if 2 watts would do the job. Seniors and PD people won't install exterior antennas, especially those in senior housing. I'd have to pick up a couple MURS and try myself. Though at least with MURS we could install a base station with an antenna which possibly make reception a lot better. I would need to find the cheapest MURS radios possible.

I did a google search last night for CB and found some around 40.00 each putting out 4 watts. Again, I'm not sure if 4 watts at that low frequency would work. I would have to pick up a pair and try.

 

[gewecke]

First, I'm not sure if 2 watts would do the job. Seniors and PD people won't install exterior antennas, especially those in senior housing. I'd have to pick up a couple MURS and try myself. Though at least with MURS we could install a base station with an antenna which possibly make reception a lot better. I would need to find the cheapest MURS radios possible.

I did a google search last night for CB and found some around 40.00 each putting out 4 watts. Again, I'm not sure if 4 watts at that low frequency would work. I would have to pick up a pair and try.

2 watts on MURS will cover 1 square mile, and that is what you said the area will be right? FRS at a half watt at best will not reliably cover your area!
I think for ease of use, reliability and distance MURS would be your best choice.
Cb is unreliable, prone to interference and requires a full telescopic whip antenna for the distance you require.

73,
n9zas

 

[mjz55]

gewecke, have you seen any inexpensive MURS radios? I know we could use those inexpensive overseas ht's for ham but they won't be legal and even if we use them in an emergency, they either put out 4-5 watts and if reduced I think they go to 1 watt.

 

[MeddleMan]

Beaten Hoarse

Anyway, the radio in my avitar has a BNC connector on top. It also uses the Green Dot channel in the MURS service. It is easily connected to an outside antenna, like a unidirectional discone antenna. Outside antennas are usually beneficial.

 

[mmckenna]

The problem with relying on phones is twofold.

First, there are very few phones available these days that don't use a wall wort power supply. Lose power and the phone is useless. I have one phone instrument in the house that does not need a power supply specifically to be assured of phone service in a power outage.

The second problem doesn't appear unless it is an extended power outage. Many central offices for telcos use battery backups, not generators. So, when you have an extended power outage on your hands, the entire phone grid starts to fade away. We witnessed that big time in the Rochester, NY area in 1991 with a massive ice storm that left thousands of power poles down and power out in some neighborhoods for weeks and weeks.

Most cell phones need to be recharged every day or every other day so their usefulness, especially for housebound seniors, drops off if the power outage lasts more than 48 hours or less. (Remembering that people tend to pick up the phone and call each other during events like this so battery conservation is probably not achievable.)

The cellular network is actually more robust than the landline one now because they all have back up generators. (At least I have never seen a cell tower without a generator.) But the battery life of the individual phones is still a problem. And emergency responders are shying away from cell phones during major incidents because the general public jams up the phone systems, landline and cellular, almost immediately. The same issue would occur for the OP's intent.

For the OP, VHF MURS at 2 watts per unit would be a much better coverage solution for the first 24 to 48 hours, but then it could also fall victim to battery life. The FRS units, at least the ones I have, all use AA batteries which can (and should be) stockpiled at home. That actually might be an important consideration if coverage issues are resolved.

Might be the case in your neck of the woods, but all the CO's out in this area have minimum of 8 hour battery back up and on site generators. Cell towers are a different story. Most cell sites here do not have generator back up and have minimal battery capacity, even though there is some suggestion by the FCC that 8 hours of run time is supposed to be designed.
Other issue with cell phones is that in a true emergency the system will get overloaded, just like the wired networks. We always recommend that no one rely on a cell phone for any sort of emergency communications. If it works, great, but it's not reliable enough in this area.

FRS might be your best be based on availability, price and ease of use. Setting up a network might require others passing on a message, or having smaller cells of users in areas that can report back to a central location.
Overcomplicating the solution will result in failure. As it is the option for 14 or 22 channels, in addition to the CTCSS and DCS codes will be problematic. I really think CB would be your best bet, or MURS with a single channel radio that can't be adjusted other than on/off and volume.

 

[gewecke]

gewecke, have you seen any inexpensive MURS radios? I know we could use those inexpensive overseas ht's for ham but they won't be legal and even if we use them in an emergency, they either put out 4-5 watts and if reduced I think they go to 1 watt.

Yes, and no. There used to be a popular radio made by motorola (marketed by radio shack) called the BTX-128. This is a single channel 2 watt vhf talkie which is legal to use on any of the 5 vhf MURS channels. I happen to have 1 of these.
These were easy to use and really cheap on ebay...if you can find one.

Another choice would be the motorola SP21 which is basically the same radio,and maybe easier to find. These are legal and work great on MURS with 2 watts, a 1 mile range is very doable on a full charge.
I will see if I can find a link of some for sale,

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Motorola-Ra...53395?pt=2_Way_Radios_FRS&hash=item1e655f2633


These are available in UHF with 2 watts also, but cannot be used on FRS, but look identical.
There are other radios that will work for MURS as well that may be cheaper too, but these are well suited for senior citizen who may not be technically inclined, since there are no bells and whistles and no software for programming is needed.

Then there are these,which might be better,
http://www.homesecuritystore.com/p-...=http://www.homesecuritystore.com/&source=pla





73,
n9zas

 

[redneckcellphone]

Here in California one time we had an earthquake that caused all cell towers to go down for like a half hour or so. So yeah that might not be feasible but have you looked into a case for your phone that has an external battery? I have one for my iPhone that allows for 1.5x the phones battery.

 

[mjz55]

I saw the Dakota's. They would work but around 70.00 sounds a bit high. They also have bad reviews.

 

[mjz55]

what about if I use a shared FRS/GMRS channel? they still use 1/2 watt but I can have an antenna, right? Not sure if this would help me or not.

 

[stmills]

You cannot use a removable antenna on FRS, combo bubble pack radios still have fixed antennas. FRS channels 1-7 are shared with GMRS, a GMRS license hold can use these with 5 watts of power versus the 1/2 watt of FRS. Licensed GMRS users can legally talk with FRS users.

 

[mjz55]

You cannot use a removable antenna on FRS, combo bubble pack radios still have fixed antennas. FRS channels 1-7 are shared with GMRS, a GMRS license hold can use these with 5 watts of power versus the 1/2 watt of FRS. Licensed GMRS users can legally talk with FRS users.

Right. So, if i install an antenna for my GMRS radio and have the radio in the center of town, I'm wondering if a 1/2 watt FRS would be able to reach my GMRS radio on channels 1-7? I def. know a 1/2 watt FRS will not reach each other from one end of town to the next.

 

[N4DES]

I licensed and installed for my community a real system on UHF after their attempts at similiar configurations on license free spectrum did not work for them for my HOA that is around 1 mile x 2 miles.

We don't have elderly, but we put together a net of the seperate association POC's and the association management office using very inexpensive radios that I found on the open market.

The system is a single UHF repeater and the antenna is about 25 or 30' in the air and has a 100AH back-up battery on it. During times of non-emergency it is utilized by security and maintenance employees and when a storn is approaching they hand out the portable radios and chargers.

Yes the initial start-up was expensive (a bit over $2K), but the system pays off with reliable comms for those that aren't radio savvy and they never have to walk around looking for the "sweet-spot". It works everywhere they need it to work.

 

[mjz55]

That's a good idea tho, I don't even need a repeater. With my bubblepack GMRS I can reach inside of house to inside of house everywhere in my borough. Plus, in order for most houses to have a seperate uhf compared to a bubblepack FRS the expense would be a lot higher for each household. That is why I was thinking of a base GMRS and using the shared FRS/GMRS channel if it would work. I guess I have to throw an antenna on the roof and travel around town with an FRS radio to see if it reaches the base; which is in the middle of the town.

 

[gewecke]

That's a good idea tho, I don't even need a repeater. With my bubblepack GMRS I can reach inside of house to inside of house everywhere in my borough. Plus, in order for most houses to have a seperate uhf compared to a bubblepack FRS the expense would be a lot higher for each household. That is why I was thinking of a base GMRS and using the shared FRS/GMRS channel if it would work. I guess I have to throw an antenna on the roof and travel around town with an FRS radio to see if it reaches the base; which is in the middle of the town.

I still think MURS would be more suitable for your use.

73,
n9zas

 

[N4DES]

That's a good idea tho, I don't even need a repeater. With my bubblepack GMRS I can reach inside of house to inside of house everywhere in my borough. Plus, in order for most houses to have a seperate uhf compared to a bubblepack FRS the expense would be a lot higher for each household. That is why I was thinking of a base GMRS and using the shared FRS/GMRS channel if it would work. I guess I have to throw an antenna on the roof and travel around town with an FRS radio to see if it reaches the base; which is in the middle of the town.

The issue is though, do the other users need to talk to each other? If they do then this configuration would not work out. If you, the person with the high antenna, is going to be the "dispatcher" and relay or repeat everything that it said then it is ok.

The operational concerns need to be reviewed first by more than 1 person, as others might have different expectations than you have. You need to provide non-technical pictorials to those who are going to use and and provide the negative and positive of each configuration.

Also does everyone need one? I know around here in the condo's that have elderly there are building captains that take the responsibility to check on those around them. We elected to utilize the individual sub-association presidentsin the HOA to do windshield assessments of the community.