HTs: Antennas, Power And Range

[Stargater53]

I'm new to amateur radio and would like some informed answers.
I've heard so many different opinions regarding this, but I'm still not clear on it.

My question is: given one of those long Nagoya type of antennas, do 5W radios have the same range as a 10-12W radio using the same antenna? Some antennas max out at 10W, but one radio, a Radtel R-470, is pushing 12-14Ws. So I'd be using a Retevis RHD-771, which takes up to 20W.

I've heard YouTube pundits say, "You won't get any increase of range by using a 10W radio over a 5W," but has anyone here ever tested that? Others say the extra wattage penetrates urban and suburban congestion. The Radtel has three power settings. If the extra power does no good, I may as well leave it on medium setting all the time.

 

[prcguy]

I’ve used a number of 16-19” long HT antennas and they work a tiny bit better at most. Sometimes you notice a little improvement sometimes no difference. The really long full half wave and 5/8 wave telescopic types give a noticeable improvement but they are about 3ft long.

 

[Stargater53]

I’ve used a number of 16-19” long HT antennas and they work a tiny bit better at most. Sometimes you notice a little improvement sometimes no difference. The really long full half wave and 5/8 wave telescopic types give a noticeable improvement but they are about 3ft long.

Yeah, I have some of those long telescoping antennas, and not only their length, but their stability is questionable and mine rattle substantially, almost as though they were going to fly in pieces. But people who use them think the world of them and report that they work very well.

What was unexpected (to me) is that many people who have used the Nagoya NA-771 antenna don't have very many things good to say about it. I have one, as well as a Nagoya NA-24j (about which I have heard virtually nothing). But I'm more impressed with the Signal.Stuff Signal Stick, though I'm sometimes tempted to stick a little red flag on the top.

Thank you for your reply. And, btw, HAPPY THANKSGIVING.

 

[vagrant]

Handhelds that can actually provide more than 5W will simply exhaust a battery quickly. Keep that in mind. I have zero plans to purchase an Amateur handheld that offers more than 5W.

As to handheld antennas, I have tested several dozen. The all around favorite flexible antenna is the Diamond SRH320A for VHF & UHF. For UHF only, any of the Diamond 77CA versions work very well for a flexible antenna. There are rotten Diamond antennas as well.

My testing results concur with prcguy in that single band telescoping antennas perform better for TX/RX. They of course can bend/break easily. While I sold or gave away many of the flexible antennas, I keep and use the telescoping when stationary, otherwise the above two Diamonds. (I also have a Signal Stick, but use it with a scanner due to lower performance)

I have also tested using a rat/tiger tail, which is basically a half meter length of wire (a counterpoise) that hangs from the radio while attached to the frame or antenna shield. I definitely noticed a slight improvement on both TX and RX. I use a very supple stranded wire I think around 22 AWG and keep it in my bag. I use it when camping and hiking in poor RF areas and will have those telescoping antennas with me as well.

 

[k6cpo]

The key word here is "slight." There might be enough of an improvement to mean the difference in a contact or not if you're at the fringes of a repeater's coverage, but otherwise the longer antennas or counterpoises are a PITA. There is one person on YT who actually did a scientific evaluation of antennas and Tiger Tails with proper test equipment. His results showed gain in the range of several milliwatts. I suspect that all the "improvement" claimed by YouTubers is perceived (because they want to see it) rather than actual.

 

[vagrant]

The key word here is "slight." There might be enough of an improvement to mean the difference in a contact or not if you're at the fringes of a repeater's coverage, but otherwise the longer antennas or counterpoises are a PITA.

Indeed - Easy to carry and use like a band-aid when needed. I learned quickly as a pre-teen what happens to telescoping handheld antennas. Enter the inefficient coat-hanger wire loop jammed into the remaining bit in my 27.125 MHz 9v radio. I even tested a counterpoise with a 6m handheld. hahaha it helped, but not something I would use.

Those experiences drove me crazy persuaded me to try numerous flexible antennas from amateur, to professional and military. In fact the best VHF/UHF antenna I use is actually a Motorola PMAT4001A on my APX 7000. It beats the Diamond antennas, but one would need to use adapters with the Moto on amateur radios and no thank you. I even use that dual band Moto on my single band XTS5000's....but I'm off topic. ( I used adapters to test antennas on both the 7000 and amateur handhelds because of the obvious )

@Stargater53 - Doubling the watts may provide a perceptible difference from 5 to 10, but I have not tested and doubt I will. There are many factors to also consider such as if you're using VHF, UHF, your geographic location like an open or forest area, hill and valley terrain, urban, etc.

* The best advice for using a handheld radio is to keep the antenna vertical. As you start to angle it horizontally, both TX and RX will suffer the more horizontal it gets if the other station is vertical. (Significantly suffer) The second best advice if you have a poor signal is to move one meter in different directions. Sometimes you can go from zero to 100 by taking a step to two. There are zero additional costs to perform these two improvements.

 

[sallen07]

My question is: given one of those long Nagoya type of antennas, do 5W radios have the same range as a 10-12W radio using the same antenna? Some antennas max out at 10W, but one radio, a Radtel R-470, is pushing 12-14Ws. So I'd be using a Retevis RHD-771, which takes up to 20W.

Couple things to think about:

- Under ideal conditions, range increases with the square root of the increase in power. So going from 5 watts to 10 would give you about 40% more range, not twice as much. 5 to 50? More than three times ... but not 10.
- That's under *ideal* conditions. Terrain, vegetation, antenna height and other factors are more important than power. If you are standing
at the base of a cliff and trying to talk to someone on the other side of that mountain, it won't matter if you are running 1 or 10 or 100 watts ... you won't be able to do so (with UHF or VHF at least).
- As others have stated, the biggest real-world impact of running higher power on an HT is lower battery life.
- Search around and you'll see that many of those "10 watt" HTs are more like 5. I think I read on here a day or two ago a post where someone said they had a "5 watt" and an "8 watt" Baofeng, and the first one put out 5 watts and the "high power" one? Four!

Finally, if you look around you won't find any "10 watt" HTs from major manufacturers. You might want to ask yourself why.

 

[prcguy]

Couple things to think about:

- Under ideal conditions, range increases with the square root of the increase in power. So going from 5 watts to 10 would give you about 40% more range, not twice as much. 5 to 50? More than three times ... but not 10.
- That's under *ideal* conditions. Terrain, vegetation, antenna height and other factors are more important than power. If you are standing
at the base of a cliff and trying to talk to someone on the other side of that mountain, it won't matter if you are running 1 or 10 or 100 watts ... you won't be able to do so (with UHF or VHF at least).
- As others have stated, the biggest real-world impact of running higher power on an HT is lower battery life.
- Search around and you'll see that many of those "10 watt" HTs are more like 5. I think I read on here a day or two ago a post where someone said they had a "5 watt" and an "8 watt" Baofeng, and the first one put out 5 watts and the "high power" one? Four!

Finally, if you look around you won't find any "10 watt" HTs from major manufacturers. You might want to ask yourself why.

You can’t equate more range with more power due to terrain, obstruction, curvature of the earth, etc. Within a range absent of those you can usually predict an expected receive level with an increase in power. Once you reach a terrestrial obstruction you can no longer say that X increase in power will give you X increase in range.

 

[sallen07]

You can’t equate more range with more power due to terrain, obstruction, curvature of the earth, etc. Within a range absent of those you can usually predict an expected receive level with an increase in power. Once you reach a terrestrial obstruction you can no longer say that X increase in power will give you X increase in range.

That's exactly what I said.

 

[vagrant]

Stupid planet getting in the way of RF fun!

For those that don't already know, use this line of sight calculator to get an idea of potential range.

Line Of Sight Calculator

calculators, engineering calculators....

www.calculatoredge.com

 

[AK9R]

What was unexpected (to me) is that many people who have used the Nagoya NA-771 antenna don't have very many things good to say about it. I have one, as well as a Nagoya NA-24j (about which I have heard virtually nothing). But I'm more impressed with the Signal.Stuff Signal Stick, though I'm sometimes tempted to stick a little red flag on the top.

I tested a Nagoya NA-771, Diamond SRH77CA, Signal Stick, and the OEM antenna on my Yaesu FT-5DR. They were all about the same. Anecdotal test. Your mileage may vary.

 

[alcahuete]

I use a Nagoya NA-771 on my Anytone 878, and compared to the stock antenna (which is actually very good), the Nagoya performed much better on VHF than the stock antenna. UHF was no difference at all.

 

[KF0NYL]

I have Nagoya 771 antennas for my Baofeng GT-5R and Explorer QRZ-1. I have noticed better performance with the 771 versus the stock antenna on both radios. The local 2m and 70cm repeaters are 21.5 miles away from me. I have no issues getting into the 2m repeater with either radio and stock antennas. Neither radio will get into the 70cm repeater with stock antennas but will with the 771 antennas.

I also have an Icom IC-T10 but haven't tried the 771 antenna on it yet. The stock antenna gets into the 2m repeater fine but I can barely be heard on the 70cm repeater.

 

[Stargater53]

I'm living near a bunch of buildings and to reach the nearest repeater, I have to go to 20W and a better antenna. Fortunately I have an Ed Fong tri-bander, though I've never tried it.

 

[kayn1n32008]

That's exactly what I said.

It's half an S-unit increase in power. SFA. You are not going to see a 40% increase in range by doubling your power. Most won't even be able to discern ANY difference.

To the OP: stick to a 4/5/6w portable. Anything more is only going to rapidly shorten your battery life.

If you feel you need more power, buy a mobile.

I've used a 25w mobile with a 1/4 wave antenna for years and never had any issues with range. I've also had 50w mobiles. I don't notice a difference.

 

[k6cpo]

The first thing a new or prospective ham should be told is "forget everything you've seen on television and in the movies about radios. Ninety-nine percent of it is wrong." Then they should not be advised to buy a handheld, particularly a Chinese one, as their first radio. They should be advised to buy a mobile with at least 50W of power. After learning on that then they can buy an HT — as long as they are aware of the shortcomings of a handheld radio.

 

[w4bce]

This may open up a can of worms but here goes. Years ago in the VFD guys used to use the New York style radio case slung over the shoulder and the mic cord run up to the collar. With the radio low on the body and the antenna against the body, communication was the worst. Just holding the radio up and speaking into the radio built-in mic gave the best results. And even moving a few feet would make better contact with dispatch.