IDEN Standard

[JGP]

Someone posted today in the RR database a ten 900MHZ frequency TRS. It is listed as IDEN Standard with IDEN TDMA as voice. Does anybody know what type of system this is? Is it a digital type that can be scanned with a BCD396T scanner?

This is an ARINC System for use at Mitchell International Airport in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.

Joel

 

[Mozilla]

Iden

No , if its IDEN /TDMA it can't be decoded using a scanner. If you type a search on here for IDEN, there are some posts

Thanks... I corrected it...

 

[DaveH]

No , if its IDEN /TDMA it can be decoded using a scanner. If you type a search on here for IDEN, there are some posts

I think you meant to say it CAN'T be decoded by a scanner.

Dave

 

[JGP]

This new system looks like a good challenge for future GRE and Uniden scanners if it is legal to scan an IDEN TRS.

Thank you for the information. Now I don't have to bother programing this into my scanner. It would have been a waste of time.

Joel

 

[n4voxgill]

iDEN is protected by U.S. Patents. so as soon as the scanner was submitted to FCC for acceptance or an announcement about it is made, a US marshall would serve them with an injunction to stop production and sale. If they manage to sell one before being detected then they get sued for infringement.

 

[N_Jay]

iDEN is protected by U.S. Patents. so as soon as the scanner was submitted to FCC for acceptance or an announcement about it is made, a US marshall would serve them with an injunction to stop production and sale. If they manage to sell one before being detected then they get sued for infringement.

Besides that, its operation would suck and they would almost all be returned.
(What a good money maker for the company)

All you would ever get would be conversations on your local cell.


But much like the ProVoice thread, this has ALL been discussed and the thread should be closed (unless someone has new information)

P.S. Your opinion is not "INFORMATION"

 

[loumaag]

N_Jay is correct on two points in the previous post. This has been discussed before and unless someone has new information I will close this in a couple of days.

For general information, we (here at RR) will put in any verified TRS in the database, even if it is not "scannable" by the ordinary scanner user. A more common example of this is all of the ProVoice EDACS systems we have listed. The ordinary scanner listener has no chance of monitoring these systems, but that doesn't mean no one can monitor the systems. Indeed such systems are monitored on a daily basis by hobbyist with the proper equipment. We supply the information as a public service for those who may have the equipment and inclination to do so.

 

[garys]

iDEN is protected by U.S. Patents. so as soon as the scanner was submitted to FCC for acceptance or an announcement about it is made, a US marshall would serve them with an injunction to stop production and sale. If they manage to sell one before being detected then they get sued for infringement.

Not true. All trunking technology is protected by patents and copyrights. In fact, copyrighting is better protection than patenting. In either case, if someone can reverse engineer the technology they can market a scanner that could decode Iden. That's how we got scanners for Motorola and EDACS systems. In fact, that's how we got the computer tha I'm writing this on. After IBM introduced the PC, other companies went to work on figuring out how to reproduce the result without using the same technology.

That's what makes this country great.

On a slightly different note, someone told me, but I can't verify, that Iden is actually a very slight variation on VSELP.

Gary

 

[JGP]

N_Jay is correct on two points in the previous post. This has been discussed before and unless someone has new information I will close this in a couple of days.

For general information, we (here at RR) will put in any verified TRS in the database, even if it is not "scannable" by the ordinary scanner user. A more common example of this is all of the ProVoice EDACS systems we have listed. The ordinary scanner listener has no chance of monitoring these systems, but that doesn't mean no one can monitor the systems. Indeed such systems are monitored on a daily basis by hobbyist with the proper equipment. We supply the information as a public service for those who may have the equipment and inclination to do so.

Lou, is it possible to put a note in the database when a system is not scanable? This will help the people who don't know the system can't be scaned.

Joel

 

[N_Jay]

Not true. All trunking technology is protected by patents and copyrights. In fact, copyrighting is better protection than patenting. In either case, if someone can reverse engineer the technology they can market a scanner that could decode Iden. That's how we got scanners for Motorola and EDACS systems. In fact, that's how we got the computer tha I'm writing this on. After IBM introduced the PC, other companies went to work on figuring out how to reproduce the result without using the same technology.

That's what makes this country great.

On a slightly different note, someone told me, but I can't verify, that Iden is actually a very slight variation on VSELP.

Gary

iDEN uses VSELP as its vocoder, but that is only one part of the issue.
(Probably the stickiest one from a intellectual property standpoint)
iDEN also uses a modulation that would take some work to decode efficiently in a receiver not specifically designed for it.
You then have to decode the channel and sub channel framing, (which would not be very hard).
Then you have to reverse engineer the unit and group ID messaging.

THEN you put it all together and all you get is users on the one cell you are in.

Edit: One little note, VSELP is a vocoder 'family' with several variations.
(The confusion comes from people who like to use the name of a particular vocoder as a shorthand name of the whole over-the-air protocol. This adds to many peoples misunderstandings) (P.S. I used to rant on this, but got so much crap, I have pretty much stopped, except where it is OBVIOUSLY the root of an issue)(Like here)


The story behind the PC is a little different, as the IBM-PC used many existing industry standards, AND IBM published the BIOS to make it easy to know how it worked.

 

[hotdjdave]

iDEN Direct Connect Without Using Nextel System

My iDEN i-760 works in simplex mode. I can direct connect with other iDEN users equipped with the some option without the use of the Nextel system. At least that is my understanding of how it works. It is called "DirecTalk."

 

[N_Jay]

My iDEN i-760 works in simplex mode. I can direct connect with other iDEN users equipped with the some option without the use of the Nextel system. At least that is my understanding of how it works. It is called "DirecTalk."

Direct Talk uses spread spectrum communications at 900 MHz in the ISM band.
I do not know if it uses VSELP, (but I bet it does) however I do know the vocoder is at about 1/2 the rate of the iDEN vocoder.

The same format is used with Motorola DTR550 and DTR65o radios.

Here is some stuff on it.

http://www.motorola.com/dtr/faqs.aspx?WT.mc_id=dtr1&WT.mc_n=dtr1&WT.mc_t=Home&WT.mc_r=120

 

[hotdjdave]

DirecTalk vs. Direct Connect

I am not sure if you are referring to "Direct Connect." Direct Connect, also know as "Private," is what Nextel has been using for years for their walkie talkie feature in their radio/phones. This uses the Nextel celular system to make this connection.

What I was referring to is "DirecTalk." This is something quite new with Nextel. Only new model phones are capable of this feature. It doen't use Nextel's celular service, but rather radio to radio (from what I understand).

UPDATE: DTR appears to be a "radio only" solution from Motorola. I am not sure if this is the same as Nextel's "DirecTalk" feature on their newer model cell phones.

UPDATE: I should probably note that my iDEN i760 is a standard Nextel cell phone (newest model); Nextel service has optional walkie talkie features that are capable of radio-type communications that reach a nationwide range (within the Nextel/Sprint cell phone network).

If you were referring to "DirecTalk" then disregard. :wink:

 

[N_Jay]

I am not sure if you are referring to "Direct Connect."
What I was referring to is "DirecTalk."
If you were referring to "DirecTalk" then disregard. :wink:

I was referring to DirecTalk which is as I said,
Direct connect is fast packet VSELP voice on the iDEN network.
DTR-550 and DTR-650 is the same as DirecTalk, but is codded not to be compatible.

 

[loumaag]

Lou, is it possible to put a note in the database when a system is not scanable? This will help the people who don't know the system can't be scaned.

Joel,

I understand your request and your intent. What you are missing is what is not scannable by you may well be scannable by someone else. So no, we cannot say what is and what is not scannable in the DB. You as the equipment owner are responsible for knowing what your equipment is capable of.

Let me provide examples that may prove to be instructive. Restricting my examples to trunking only, if you were a RS Pro-90 / Uniden BC235XLT owner (same radio, different printing) then you would be incapable of scanning any system that is not a Motorola Type I or Type II system. Too extreme? Try this, say you owned a Pro-96 (or 2096), based on your request we would have to mark all LTR systems as unscannable. I hope I am getting the idea across. Basically I am trying to say that we as DB managers have no idea what you as a user have in your hand. By definition all systems are scannable, because if they weren't, they would not exist; it is just a matter of what you have in your hand as to whether you as an individual can monitor them.

 

[hotdjdave]

Radio Equipment Other Than Scanners

...it is just a matter of what you have in your hand as to whether you as an individual can monitor them.

Another example is that people may use this site to program an actual radio and not a scanner. The radio may be able to receive the communications, but not any scanners. (E.g. someone who buys a M/A COM radio to program it for their volunteer unit or SAR unit (or whatever) - if the proper mode(s) is(are) enabled, no stand alone OEM scanner will receive the communications).

I understand what Lou means: Just because one scanner can't receive the freqencies doesn't mean another device can't.

 

[n4voxgill]

people that are programming actual radios should have a better source of information than this site.

 

[hotdjdave]

people that are programming actual radios should have a better source of information than this site.

:lol: I am guessing you have never worked as a volunteer.

And if you did/do and had/have the resources available, LUCKY YOU! :wink:

 

[gatekeep]

Not to change the subject off the IDEN Standard, but, what possible range could you have with a off-network iDen based radio? I mean, the phones don't put out that much wattage, but then again, if your elevation is high enough you'd probably get considerable range with minimal wattage, but my question still stands...

 

[N_Jay]

Not to change the subject off the IDEN Standard, but, what possible range could you have with a off-network iDen based radio? I mean, the phones don't put out that much wattage, but then again, if your elevation is high enough you'd probably get considerable range with minimal wattage, but my question still stands...

They give you about the same range as FRS

The coding has a lot of Forward Error Correction, which helps the range.

I have heard of people getting 8 miles in the open. (Rare case, excellent conditions)