• Effective immediately we will be deleting, without notice, any negative threads or posts that deal with the use of encryption and streaming of scanner audio.

    We've noticed a huge increase in rants and negative posts that revolve around agencies going to encryption due to the broadcasting of scanner audio on the internet. It's now worn out and continues to be the same recycled rants. These rants hijack the threads and derail the conversation. They no longer have a place anywhere on this forum other than in the designated threads in the Rants forum in the Tavern.

    If you violate these guidelines your post will be deleted without notice and an infraction will be issued. We are not against discussion of this issue. You just need to do it in the right place. For example:
    https://forums.radioreference.com/rants/224104-official-thread-live-audio-feeds-scanners-wait-encryption.html

Internet Shut Down, SW balance

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Token

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The government can not track SW receivers, but that is only half of the equation. The one thing that can easily be tracked are SW transmitters!
Well, lets say that the "government" (or whoever the bad guy is in the scenario) would have a little trouble tracking a SW receiver...but not that they can't. Maybe for the purposes of this discussion it is impractical....but it absolutely could, and can, be done.

Research "Operation Rafter". Think about how that somewhat affective 1950's program could be enhanced using modern technology. Further, you might research unintentional radiation sources and such applications in MASINT.

T!

(edit) I forgot a good one...SFX Entertainment. This private company uses a technique to find out what radio station your car radio is tuned to whenever you park in one of their contracted parking facilities. That same technique could be used to determine what radio station a shortwave receiver is tuned to, and with improvement to track its location.
 
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kb2vxa

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FYI TV receivers in Britain are licensed (read taxed) and Ofcom has tracking vans to enforce it like the FCC has tracking vehicles only these are TV specific. Sound far fetched? NO! For real BUT logistically impractical so the actual number is quite small and the rest are dummies for show only. Again logistically, like any vehicles they break down so they're in the shop, in all of the UK there may be but two on the road at any given time.

Consider this, tracking receivers is possible but extremely far from practical law or no law. Bottom line is anything fed by wire anywhere in the transmission path can be shut off at the flick of a switch but due to complex logistics shutting down pure radio is next to impossible. Many of you out there are old enough to remember tuning around shortwave hearing those buzzing jammers all over the bands but you knew enough got through with little to no interference that political propaganda rules despite any and all opposition. Even in war there is no way to stop radio, there always was and always will be an underground. If you want to create a black market make it illegal, simple as that. You'll find him on the corner wearing a trench coat and hat, as you pass you'll hear "PSST. Hey buddy, wanna buy a radio?"

Shortwave set, guns, ammo and a motorcycle. What else do you need? Oh yeah, a scanner. (;->)
 

BrigPilgrim

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If the US wants to send out its "Radio Free Europe" type broadcast to a foreign audience by internet, It is real easy for the foreign government to see who is logging on to the website. The Nazi's would put a sticker on the Volksempfänger radio saying that to listen to foreign broadcast is prohibited.

That sticker wouldn't report back to the authorities who was listening to what, but the internet does have that capability. It is a lot cheaper for broadcasters to put their message out over the internet. If that message is controversial, people are not going to listen when they know how easy it is track them.

I believe that this type of broadcast is going to be the future of Short Wave.
 

SCPD

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Everyone here knows about RFID chips.

My question is how do we know that anything we buy now a days doesn't have one in radio's, computers and such.

Like the china (Crap) sw radio's coming off the boat from china.

Cell phones can be tracked as long as it's not shut off.

RFID chips are every where, Wal Mart uses them for their security and inventory.

You know those security stickers have RFID chips in them just like DVD, Ever notice the white plastic INSIDE the DVD cases? Those have RFID chips in them.

My SW radio's are the old type, 20 years old.... a time where rfid chips were not even thought of.

Yeah DONT EVER FORGET THE SCANNER!!!!
 

rexgame

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(edit) I forgot a good one...SFX Entertainment.
They use a system called Mobiltrak. The first rollout in the 1990's put the sensors on utility poles along major routes, they could catch about 20% of traffic. It started out as FM commercial only, now it will do AM. Their is a military type that pre-dates Mobiltrak that is HMMWV mounted and can control SINCGARS and VRC-103's and presumably integrates into the JTRS suite. With the control you not only can tell what freq a nearby unit is on, but tune in to it. JTRS integration would probably bring it a step further, where you could take your laptop, click on a nearby unit including enemy formations, and listen to what they are hearing.
 
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Token

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They use a system called Mobiltrak. The first rollout in the 1990's put the sensors on utility poles along major routes, they could catch about 20% of traffic. It started out as FM commercial only, now it will do AM.
I wasn’t going to go into details, just wanted to spark people to investigate on their own ;) FM was first because FM is the easiest in the US. The IFs are almost always 10.7 MHz and the band is channelized in 100 kHz steps, with actual use mostly resulting in 200 kHz steps on the odd tenth. This means, for example, that all of the FM radio stations in Los Angeles end in an odd number after the decimal, 95.5, 101.1, 95.1, etc.

Since the IF is almost always 10.7 MHz the resultant LO is either 10.7 above or 10.7 below the RF, but ends up on an even tenth. An “above” LO for an FM radio tuned to 95.5 KLOS would be on 106.2 MHz, a frequency that is between two stations in the area, 106.3 and 106.7. So the LO can be seen easily as it is not covered by a station and is at least 100 kHz offset from the closest transmission. Similarly a “below” LO for a car radio tuned to KLOS would be on 84.8, outside the FM band completely (although inside the allocation for TV channel 6).

So, if you are in the Los Angeles area and pick up a solid CW carrier on either 106.2 or 84.8 MHz the probability is very high you have just picked up the LO of an FM radio tuned to 95.5 MHz FM, KLOS.

Doing AM is a little more difficult, as the IFs are not quite as predictable (although 455 kHz is probably most common), and the AM channels are a bit closer. On the good news side the common 455 kHz means the LO will always end up either between AM broadcast channels (every 10 kHz in the US) or outside the band. So that an “above” LO for KFI 640 will be on 1095 kHz, and a “below” will be 185 kHz. 185 kHz is outside the AM BCB, but 1095 is smack in the middle, and also between KDIS on 1110 kHz and KNX on 1070 kHz. Sounds good, but there is a station on 1090 out of Mexico, that can be heard in the daytime in LA. So, you have to separate the very low power LO leakage on 1095 kHz from the 50,000 Watt XEPRS just over the US/Mexico border and on 1090 kHz, only 5 kHz away.

Tracking SW radio LOs would be a similar problem to the AM BCB issue. The IF would be much more variable and the LO harder to see between tight radio channels. Still, I am sure it could be done, but it would be a lot of effort and probably only applied in a high value situation.

Their is a military type that pre-dates Mobiltrak that is HMMWV mounted and can control SINCGARS and VRC-103's and presumably integrates into the JTRS suite. With the control you not only can tell what freq a nearby unit is on, but tune in to it. JTRS integration would probably bring it a step further, where you could take your laptop, click on a nearby unit including enemy formations, and listen to what they are hearing.
Yeah, but now you are describing a cooperative system. Tracking LOs can be done without cooperation of the target radio.

T!
 

k9rzz

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I tried to listen to some radio out of the UP of Michigan this morning online, just 300 miles from my home. Out of almost a dozen stations, only one was actually on. It was a public radio station out of Houghton, but relaying a different station out of Minnesota. Try to hear one via radio? Good luck. They are low powered, the terrain is very hilly, and located in the middle of nowhere. Meanwhile, as I type this, I'm watching the world news from Deuche Welle, Germany on my local TV.

Go figure!
 

rexgame

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Yeah, but now you are describing a cooperative system. Tracking LOs can be done without cooperation of the target radio.

T!
????? Can you explain further what you mean by "cooperative system" and "Tracking LOs can be done without cooperation of the target radio."

The system figures out what frequency they are on, and tunes your radio to it. If you took a Mobiltrak, and entered the data from the readout into your own radio, your doing exactly what it does by itself. It simply tunes your receiver or radio without you having to manually enter the frequency. I fail to see the "cooperation of the target radio" other than it's a receiver with it's own emissions.
 

K3DRQ

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RFID chips are every where, Wal Mart uses them for their security and inventory.

You know those security stickers have RFID chips in them just like DVD, Ever notice the white plastic INSIDE the DVD cases? Those have RFID chips in them.
When I was in college years ago I did a report on RFID, there are different shapes and sizes, not only the microchip ones people talk about. Here's an example of a visible one, taken from Google Images:

http://www.instructables.com/image/F5QCBT0FECFCJKF/How-to-blockkill-RFID-chips.jpg

Recently I got a box set of 5 DVDs off an eBay vendor. Along with the DVDs, there was a white piece of cardboard inside with a security tag and an innocent-looking white sticker. I thought it was strange that a white sticker on a white piece of cardboard would exist if a security tag was already there. I peel it off and...Surprise! An RFID tag.
 

K3DRQ

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FYI TV receivers in Britain are licensed (read taxed) and Ofcom has tracking vans to enforce it like the FCC has tracking vehicles only these are TV specific. Sound far fetched? NO! For real BUT logistically impractical so the actual number is quite small and the rest are dummies for show only. Again logistically, like any vehicles they break down so they're in the shop, in all of the UK there may be but two on the road at any given time.
You might want to check out this video, it's an infomercial for something like that. The military contractor keeps banning it for "copyright infringement" so watch it while you can:

Z Backscatter Van

(Is it possible to embed videos in this forum?)
 

Token

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????? Can you explain further what you mean by "cooperative system" and "Tracking LOs can be done without cooperation of the target radio."

The system figures out what frequency they are on, and tunes your radio to it. If you took a Mobiltrak, and entered the data from the readout into your own radio, your doing exactly what it does by itself. It simply tunes your receiver or radio without you having to manually enter the frequency. I fail to see the "cooperation of the target radio" other than it's a receiver with it's own emissions.
Targets can be classified as either cooperative or non-cooperative. They intentionally provide you data or they do not.

What I mean by a “cooperative system” (not to be confused with a cooperative target) is that someone (not necessarily a person) in the network inputs the data on any target, contact, or unit in the network. This someone can be any member of the network, such as a radio reporting its own settings (particularly in JTRS) or a unit reporting position or contact information.

In other words the network itself does not figure out anything, but it shares anything reported with members of the network.

The way the system determines what frequency a nearby unit is on is by that nearby unit reporting itself to the network. That is the way it gets most data on friendly and cooperative units, self-reporting. The key here is cooperative targets.

Generally speaking, without the cooperative system, or network, most of the units in the network might not be able to directly track most of the targets. All the individual units generally have is a map with positions overlaid on it, not actual tracking equipment. A cooperative system can report and distribute both cooperative and non-cooperative targets, but it generally has more data of higher fidelity on cooperative targets.

Direct detection of the LO would be a non-cooperative target (NCT). It is not emitting that LO energy intentionally to provide you tracking data. Once the data on the LO detection is input into the network it could be distributed to all nodes via a cooperative system. Direct detection of a system responding to IFF would be a cooperative target, it is emitting that IFF response so you know what and who it is. It might even self-report to the system, depending on the system.

Specifically as applied to LO detection if you were relying on that for target detection and NOT distributing the information via a cooperative system very few units would have the information, as LO detection ranges tend to be very, very, short and this capability is normally limited to specialized platforms. In your example of JTRS no individual node would be able to detect the target LO, no portion of that system is designed for that type of work. Nor could they track or listen to the platform…unless it transmitted in the clear and happened to be in the band of the system used.

T!
 

ka3jjz

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OK this is beginning to wander too far OT. Back on topic, please - even if that last post is interesting...

Mike
 

CoolCat

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Everyone here knows about RFID chips.

My question is how do we know that anything we buy now a days doesn't have one in radio's, computers and such.

Like the china (Crap) sw radio's coming off the boat from china.

Cell phones can be tracked as long as it's not shut off.

RFID chips are every where, Wal Mart uses them for their security and inventory.

You know those security stickers have RFID chips in them just like DVD, Ever notice the white plastic INSIDE the DVD cases? Those have RFID chips in them.

My SW radio's are the old type, 20 years old.... a time where rfid chips were not even thought of.

Yeah DONT EVER FORGET THE SCANNER!!!!
Most of the anti-theft "tags" (E.A.S. tags) used by retailers like Walmart do not contain "chips" inside them. Most of them are simple stick-on rectangular tabs that contain only two thin strips of metal.

The thin square E.A.S. tags (sometimes part of the UPC code tag) that have spiraled metal behind them are basically just small antennas that resonate at a specific frequency of the E.A.S. gate (the plastic pedestals you walk past at the entrance and exits of retail stores) and transmit a different frequency. The 'alternate' frequency is what sets off the alarm. While this type of E.A.S. tag is technically RFID, the frequency it transmits is generic (each tag transmits the same frequency). Some of them transmit semi-unique frequencies to track inventory, but these are also generic (the tag transmits a frequency that is unique only the the product UPC, not the individual item itself). To deactivate the tag [at the register], an RF transmitter basically overloads the small antenna in the tag and burns out the circuit.

The bottom line here is the EAS/RFID tags used by retailers are generic (they do not identify any specific/single item), and they are rendered useless once deactivated at the register. You cannot personally be tracked by them. ( some people watch too many conspiracy shows/movies :) ).
 
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