Kenwood NX-5300 vs Motorola APX series

[RT145]

My fire department is looking to switch over from our current XTS series Motorola portables to Kenwood NX-5300 portables. We have a few that we got as demos but they don't seem to have as good of reception. We've had a few calls where the members using the Kenwoods couldn't be heard by dispatch, even in line of sight of the dispatch center antennas but the Motorola portables have no issues, and the same with the various portables inside of a building during an alarm activation.

Our department would like to upgrade to APX series portables when it comes time to replace the rest of the radios (Likely either 4000 or 6000 portables) but we'll need a good reason to justify to the town why we don't want them (Other than the stated reasons). It would be easier to argue under health and safety if the Kenwoods aren't rated the same for either use in IDLH environments or other reasons, but I'm having a hard time justifying it. The only reason the town wants them is due to cost.

I know that there are a lot of people who prefer Kenwoods and I'm not saying their bad radios, it's just that they don't seem to be working well for our application, and I'm just trying to make a good argument.

Thanks in advance.

 

[KG7PBS]

My question is this where the Kenwood radios under the firefighters bunker gear when talking to dispatch? And where the Motorola radios under the bunker gear as well when talking to dispatch when you notice the poor transmit ?

 

[RT145]

Motorolas were in radio straps under turnout gear, the Kenwood was either on plain clothes or in the front radio pouch.

 

[IAmSixNine]

What type of system is this. Analog or digital? Repeater or direct?
You mention the Kenwood radios have reception issues but your describing transmission issues. Two different things.
Check the programming. Are they set to high power on the channel your trying to talk on?

 

[RT145]

Analog, repeater. Issues are both with dispatch hearing them and vice versa. Channels are set to high power.

 

[SVFC462]

What microphones are they using?

Check the audio settings for the radio. There are several different audio profile options and co-inside with microphones as well.

What antennas are on the radios?


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[Giddyuptd]

A lot varies in a system. Could be the system itself and how those portables were programmed.

I've noticed better reception with the NX series.

Kenwood a lot users will moan no mdc muting on post ptt in analog. I think it's irrelevant.

One advantage the NX has is multi mode digital capability if needed.

 

[kd4efm]

POST MDC muting comment has been sent to Japan. I am gathering technical info now and sending to Japan per Corp request.

 

[Giddyuptd]

Only advantage to me muting would have is to rid the annoying bendix king oddball mdc data bursts. They are pretty horrific more than the xts line had and quanta improperly programmed.

I honestly don't care if a radio has muting in most systems.

 

[60ASSTCHIEF]

My fire department is looking to switch over from our current XTS series Motorola portables to Kenwood NX-5300 portables. We have a few that we got as demos but they don't seem to have as good of reception. We've had a few calls where the members using the Kenwoods couldn't be heard by dispatch, even in line of sight of the dispatch center antennas but the Motorola portables have no issues, and the same with the various portables inside of a building during an alarm activation.

Our department would like to upgrade to APX series portables when it comes time to replace the rest of the radios (Likely either 4000 or 6000 portables) but we'll need a good reason to justify to the town why we don't want them (Other than the stated reasons). It would be easier to argue under health and safety if the Kenwoods aren't rated the same for either use in IDLH environments or other reasons, but I'm having a hard time justifying it. The only reason the town wants them is due to cost.

I know that there are a lot of people who prefer Kenwoods and I'm not saying their bad radios, it's just that they don't seem to be working well for our application, and I'm just trying to make a good argument.

Thanks in advance.

I’m just going to throw my 2 cents in regarding the 5300 vs APX radios. Particularly the APX 6000. I’ve used both extensively and tested them in pretty much every category. The APX is hands down better than the 5300. Better reception, better receive audio, better transmit audio. WAY better noise suppression. Range seems quite a bit better as well. Audio clarity on the 5300 during interior fire operations were not as clear as well. That was a big safety issue for us and was one of the main reason we went with the apx 6000’s. It’s a big difference when listening to each radio. I’m not saying the 5300 is a bad radio. But the APX 6000 is a better radio than the 5300.

 

[kayn1n32008]

Unless you are deploying thousands of radios, you don’t matter to Motorola. Period.

Kenwood is very receptive to needs/wants/problems/criticism. They want your business, and won’t treat you like a PITA.

Beware of QA/QC issues with Motorola APX radios. One deployment I know of has had a greater than 2% out of box failure rate. Not acceptable for what you pay.


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[MTS2000des]

Audio clarity on the 5300 during interior fire operations were not as clear as well. That was a big safety issue for us and was one of the main reason we went with the apx 6000’s. It’s a big difference when listening to each radio. I’m not saying the 5300 is a bad radio. But the APX 6000 is a better radio than the 5300.

The NX-5300 isn't comparable to an APX6000 or 6000XE. I'd say a better apples to apples comparison from EFJ/Kenwood would be a VP-6000. The VP-6000 can stand up to the same conditions as an APX6000XE. I've done side by side comparisons, and the VP6000 is a "like/kind/quality" replacement in terms of audio, noise cancelling on outbound, usability in a fire/IDLH setting, and performance on our Astro 25 linear simulcast system. It's about the only non-Motorola subscriber that has my blessing for fire use.

I have a VP-5430 (pretty much the SAME hardware as the NX5300 except it's got superior EFJ firmware and uses Armada for programming and not the technical abortion that is KPG) and while it's a GREAT radio for light duty applications, I'd never recommend it for fire use. It's not a comparison to an APX6000 non-XE and certainly no match for an XE APX6000/7000/8000. It's more comparable to an APX900. It's a low cost, light duty radio.

Kenwood needs to stick to marketing radios like the VP6000 to public safety. This is a public safety grade product.

 

[morganAL]

We deployed a large number of Kenwood 5430 in 700 MHz P-25 Trunking and the agencies don't like them. We have seen a high failure rate with antenna connectors. Not the rubber duck but the actual jack the duck screws into. The way it connects to the RF board is less than ideal and it breaks easily. I have seen radios that in about a year of in and out of a police car all day, need to have the case replaced. Most police don't use radio pouches and radios often rub against things. In this case, officers had converted from Crown Vics to Tahoes and the seat is slightly narrowed which caused the radio to rub against the center console when the officer would enter or exit the vehicle. The case of t he radio was worn all the way through to the metal frame of the radio. Other issues.... Kenwood told us and the dealer there was no need to do an alignment on the radios before being deployed because they were aligned before they left the factory. WRONG! We started having all kinds of issues and we discovered that the Kenwoods were off frequency. Some were off a little, some were off so bad the radio wouldn't lock onto the control channel of a site that you could physically see. The audio on them isn't great either. Dispatchers complain of static on their signals (remember, this is a P-25 digital system), officers with certain tonal characteristics are muffled sounding, One department is demoing some APX radios and the dispatchers can tell the difference in audio. One annoying thing the 5430 doesn't have is a nuisance scan delete feature. The programming software is a royal pain to use and God help you if you want to move it to another computer. The 5930 mobile has a few issues as well but since you asked about portables, I'll save that for later.

 

[Giddyuptd]

We deployed a large number of Kenwood 5430 in 700 MHz P-25 Trunking and the agencies don't like them. We have seen a high failure rate with antenna connectors. Not the rubber duck but the actual jack the duck screws into. The way it connects to the RF board is less than ideal and it breaks easily. I have seen radios that in about a year of in and out of a police car all day, need to have the case replaced. Most police don't use radio pouches and radios often rub against things. In this case, officers had converted from Crown Vics to Tahoes and the seat is slightly narrowed which caused the radio to rub against the center console when the officer would enter or exit the vehicle. The case of t he radio was worn all the way through to the metal frame of the radio. Other issues.... Kenwood told us and the dealer there was no need to do an alignment on the radios before being deployed because they were aligned before they left the factory. WRONG! We started having all kinds of issues and we discovered that the Kenwoods were off frequency. Some were off a little, some were off so bad the radio wouldn't lock onto the control channel of a site that you could physically see. The audio on them isn't great either. Dispatchers complain of static on their signals (remember, this is a P-25 digital system), officers with certain tonal characteristics are muffled sounding, One department is demoing some APX radios and the dispatchers can tell the difference in audio. One annoying thing the 5430 doesn't have is a nuisance scan delete feature. The programming software is a royal pain to use and God help you if you want to move it to another computer. The 5930 mobile has a few issues as well but since you asked about portables, I'll save that for later.

Haven't opened one up yet but is it sma soldered to the board like the xts series?

Interesting. I haven't ever had issue qith a Kenwood needing aligned that was new or the Antenna issue. I have taken a NX into a fire and it came out with smoke stain and tested fine after and with a good cleaning looked close to same as it did before that.

The wear and tear on public safety radios is something I feel happens to all.

I have seen APX housings cracked, worn, damaged to the chassis like you have found.

I have also seen a small entity purposely beat the heck out of their Harris radios to hopefully convince bean counters Motorola was better, in which some nearly lost their job. Not saying this is the case but you'd be surprised with public servant mentality on wanting their way or getting something new.

Seen it happen with xts1500s and them purposely breaking the sma antenna to claim they were old and useless junk to cramming the radio under a shelf bending the antennas purposely to get them swapped out with a APX to only do same when they want a newer radio because the housing is bad or broke to them.

Programming is also important and should be tested prior to full deployment for optimal performance. It also plays a part in how well the entire system is built and maintained. I have seen a Harris, APX, BK act crappy on p25 and it was all in how it was programmed by someone who imported and left the data at that without fine tuning it all to their system needs.

Most of the time from what I've seen roaming issues, voting issues, affiliating issues are either site build gaps, and mainly user errors in operating a radio.

 

[morganAL]

I have not looked at the internal connections on the radios. I'm just going what the shop said about the connectors and how they were connected to the board. As far as the alignment goes, we logged the before and after frequency error on every radio and it was quite an eye opener. Maybe there was an issue with the factory's test set. Who knows.
Programming wasn't the issue for sure, it was radio alignment. We had officers in the radio shop and before the radios were aligned, some were affiliated to the system and some were showing out of range. After alignment, all were affiliated. The areas they were complaining about were not fringe areas, it was the middle of the city, areas with the strongest system coverage. There could be three officers on a wreck with TK-5430 radios, and engine company with 4 XTS-2500 and an EMS crew with XTS-1500 1.5 radios and at least one PD unit would be having radio problems but fire and EMS had none.
I've been in public safety for 30 yrs so nothing surprises me anymore when it comes to personnel and equipment.