Might wanna read this
http://forums.radioreference.com/un...are-1-03-01-public-release-2.html#post2959490
http://forums.radioreference.com/un...are-1-03-01-public-release-2.html#post2959490
Thanks, that's what I did last night. When I started editing the x2 entry, I lost track of how many characters I had erased, and chickened out. I have several regional favorites lists that contain x2 defined systems, so maybe I'll suck it up and see if I can get it to work. The issue has forced me to do so editing of TGs, so it's not a bad thing - just time consuming.
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Motorola radios primarily ID control based on a combination of broadcast WACN, System, Zone, and Site IDs as determined by the System Type programming field. If they hear a CC on the right frequency, they'll listen for the appropriate combo of information per their settings on how big to listen for, and determine whether to try to send a registration burst. They can be set to validate NAC against System ID, but in practice I've seen that very rarely used.
Again this is all for Motorola:
1) These separate entries just allow for appropriate control channel reference to RF channels in different band splits (true different bands OR different channel spacing like 12.5 vs 6.25 OR double the channel numbers due to TDMA slots) to be clearly understood by the radio. The reason for the 800s is that this layout of bandplans is pretty standard among 700/800 systems and they tend to keep it consistent in case of future expansion/changes.
2) The bandplan broadcast for MD FiRST ONLY applies to MD FiRST. Motorola radios are configured with individual bandplan entries under each Trunked System entry in the codeplug, and do not receive their bandplans over the air.
3) Allegany users will have separate Trunked System entries for UHF systems in the area that will have their own bandplans pre-set.
4) I believe P25 requires the bandplan to be broadcast, but Motorola radios are pre-programmed with the correct bandplans and will not function on a system without its properly configured bandplan entered. They don't use the over-the-air bandplan at all.
Hope that helps. Literally AFAIK the only reason you're hearing a bandplan broadcast at all is because the P25 standard requires it as part of the CC information. I have no idea if Harris or BK radios use that information OTA, but MSI stuff doesn't at all. You set the bandplan wrong in CPS, good luck transmitting on the right inbound control channel freq to register/affiliate - radio will just get confused and say OUT OF RANGE or NO COMMS. They're not nearly as smart as we might think
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Motorola radios primarily ID control based on a combination of broadcast WACN, System, Zone, and Site IDs as determined by the System Type programming field. If they hear a CC on the right frequency, they'll listen for the appropriate combo of information per their settings on how big to listen for, and determine whether to try to send a registration burst. They can be set to validate NAC against System ID, but in practice I've seen that very rarely used.
Again this is all for Motorola:
1) These separate entries just allow for appropriate control channel reference to RF channels in different band splits (true different bands OR different channel spacing like 12.5 vs 6.25 OR double the channel numbers due to TDMA slots) to be clearly understood by the radio. The reason for the 800s is that this layout of bandplans is pretty standard among 700/800 systems and they tend to keep it consistent in case of future expansion/changes.
2) The bandplan broadcast for MD FiRST ONLY applies to MD FiRST. Motorola radios are configured with individual bandplan entries under each Trunked System entry in the codeplug, and do not receive their bandplans over the air.
3) Allegany users will have separate Trunked System entries for UHF systems in the area that will have their own bandplans pre-set.
4) I believe P25 requires the bandplan to be broadcast, but Motorola radios are pre-programmed with the correct bandplans and will not function on a system without its properly configured bandplan entered. They don't use the over-the-air bandplan at all.
Hope that helps. Literally AFAIK the only reason you're hearing a bandplan broadcast at all is because the P25 standard requires it as part of the CC information. I have no idea if Harris or BK radios use that information OTA, but MSI stuff doesn't at all. You set the bandplan wrong in CPS, good luck transmitting on the right inbound control channel freq to register/affiliate - radio will just get confused and say OUT OF RANGE or NO COMMS. They're not nearly as smart as we might think
Thanks, good info.
Does anyone have any idea why an agency would "go to channel 2 for the week"? QA Co Law Dispatch sent all users to Law 2 for the week, beginning at 6m today. Law 2 is encrypted, and hasn't been used as much recently, as it was earlier. This wouldn't seem to be an abnormally troublesome week to be using it. The quirky part is neighboring agencies are having some difficulty using their Law 2 when asked. Only sporadic garbled/encrypted transmissions are heard on (currently unencrypted) Law Dispatch.
chrgaughan
Member
Is there a list of UHF P25 frequencies that will be used in Allegany Co ?
Not sure if they are P25, but my guess that they are the ATAC channels that I *think* are the inputs for the DVRS. All speculative.
Might be that they are interested in going to full encryption and instead of having to program all the radios again, they will just use an encrypted tac as dispatch. I previously seen on Unitrunker, MSP/MDTA have the ability to use ENC Tac-2.
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Just heard a priority call go out on MSP S from QA. "Units Remain on Q Law Tac 2"
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I suppose it's possible they might be transitioning to full encryption, but it seems strange they would ask users to move the operations channel "for a week." Won't they have to "touch" the subscriber units to reprogram all the LE TGs to use encryption? I'm not sure this can be done OTA, or on a per channel basis, but maybe they are pushing the new programming / keys for the current dispatch TG, and not wanting to knock any radio unexpectedly and leave a deputy unaware and unable to communicate. Perhaps the OTAR "rolls" serially or in groups, and it take a while to contact each subscriber.
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OTAP is dependent on subscribers being turned on to receive the codeplug changes. FiRST does have OTAP capability, but I'm not sure how many agencies even at the state level are using it. OTAP can be used to change any provisioned variable in a radio, whether it be a template variable or an individual radio variable (ID, alias, etc). It is possible to set it up to do it in groups for RF channel resource management, but with cycling shifts of people there's not much reason to do that with an agency as small as QA. If they push an OTAP change, it should take about a week for everyone to have turned on their radios and received the changes.
Bear in mind, OTAP is Over The Air Programming, while OTAR is Over The Air Rekeying to specifically add or change encryption keys.
Bear in mind, OTAP is Over The Air Programming, while OTAR is Over The Air Rekeying to specifically add or change encryption keys.
Statewide Interoperability Radio Control Board
Quarterly Meeting Agenda
December 12, 2018
1:00 pm – 3:00 pm
1st Floor Conference Room, Side B
DoIT Headquarters
100 Community Place
Crownsville, MD 21032
AGENDA
A. 1:00 – 1:05 Call to Order / Introductions
B. 1:05 – 1:10 Review minutes from 9/19/18
C. 1:10 – 2:00 New Business
Proposed New Primary Users:
o St. Mary’s County, MD
o Morgan State University
Proposed New Comm Interop Users:
o Naval District of Washington Fire & Emergency Services
Approval of New SOPs:
o SOP 0.06 Use of Maryland “Direct” Frequencies
o SOP 0.07 Use of “Nationwide Low Power” Frequencies
D. 2:00 – 2:10 System Performance Report
E. 2:10 – 2:15 Project Status Update
Phase 4 Status
Phase 5 Status
Cherry Town Chicken ASR RF Site
F. 2:15 – 2:25 Operations Status Update
Major System Upgrade to 7.16
Potential New ASR Site – Crisfield
Talbot 2-Channel Expansion
Two Factor Authentication
CEN (Customer Enterprise Network) Redesign
Dorchester County Migration
Cecil County Migration
Cecil Cell move from Zone 1 to Zone 3
G. 2:25 – 2:30 Operations Committee Status Update
H. 2:30 – 3:00 Old Business
I. 3:00 Closing
Next Meeting Date: March 20, 2019
https://doit.maryland.gov/support/Radio Control Board Minutes/December 12, 2018 Agenda.pdf
Quarterly Meeting Agenda
December 12, 2018
1:00 pm – 3:00 pm
1st Floor Conference Room, Side B
DoIT Headquarters
100 Community Place
Crownsville, MD 21032
AGENDA
A. 1:00 – 1:05 Call to Order / Introductions
B. 1:05 – 1:10 Review minutes from 9/19/18
C. 1:10 – 2:00 New Business
Proposed New Primary Users:
o St. Mary’s County, MD
o Morgan State University
Proposed New Comm Interop Users:
o Naval District of Washington Fire & Emergency Services
Approval of New SOPs:
o SOP 0.06 Use of Maryland “Direct” Frequencies
o SOP 0.07 Use of “Nationwide Low Power” Frequencies
D. 2:00 – 2:10 System Performance Report
E. 2:10 – 2:15 Project Status Update
Phase 4 Status
Phase 5 Status
Cherry Town Chicken ASR RF Site
F. 2:15 – 2:25 Operations Status Update
Major System Upgrade to 7.16
Potential New ASR Site – Crisfield
Talbot 2-Channel Expansion
Two Factor Authentication
CEN (Customer Enterprise Network) Redesign
Dorchester County Migration
Cecil County Migration
Cecil Cell move from Zone 1 to Zone 3
G. 2:25 – 2:30 Operations Committee Status Update
H. 2:30 – 3:00 Old Business
I. 3:00 Closing
Next Meeting Date: March 20, 2019
https://doit.maryland.gov/support/Radio Control Board Minutes/December 12, 2018 Agenda.pdf
Interesting.. can anyone translate (Cecil Cell move from Zone 1 to Zone 3)
for me? Not sure what that means.
for me? Not sure what that means.
I won't matter to you as a user, and you won't have to change any programming in you radio. It's basically being done to optimize core resources. Cecil moves from Zone 1 (essentially the Baltimore region extending to WMd) to Zone 3, which covers the Eastern Shore. The system will have 3 primary cores, the last one looks like it will cover the DC Metro counties and SoMd (Zone 5.)
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Ok Thanks Maus.. Just a Statewide system engineering label alignment..
While it may not require changing programming (for scanner users). The Cecil Site will likely change from the current RFSS ID of 1.4 to a 3.X site ID (X being whatever is available 1-12 are in use).
And the Cecilton ASR as well..
IDK??
Likely that an actual subscriber would look at the Zone / site (and some other values) in addition to the cch. More sites are coming online to enhance coverage in established areas in addition to the Cecilton ASR (Cherrytown and maybe Crisfield as noted in the agenda.)
The RRDB entry for FIRST needs a bit of cleanup - some of the entries were submitted back when the system first came online, and need to be recategorized. The biggest one is the "Maryland" group / heading. This group contains the various Tac TGs that are used by Interoperability Users that want to communicate with different agencies, and a few TGs that should be in different Groups. The group name "Maryland" really doesn't define its use nor its users. I propose renaming this group to either "Tactical" or "Interoperability" - does this make sense? Anyone else have a suggestion? There are also a few FIRST admin TGs that should be moved to a new group - like "DoIT" (Dept of Information Technology) that manages the FIRST system. I would also propose merging the First Radio Tech group into the "DoIT" group, and moving TG 7455 to the MSP group where it belongs.
Notes from today's RCB meeting
In roughly chronological order - nothing earth-shatteringly new was discussed, except for St. Mary's:
STMC has applied as a Primary User, and the application was approved. They want to use FIRST as backup to their apparently troublesome Harris P25 system that is still running in FDMA mode (as of last month.) The news is that the county is evaluating a proposal from Motorola that would enable them migrate operations to FIRST. I'd assume this would mean adding ASRs to some of the county's existing sites, and adding the appropriate dispatch center equipment, and maybe some fiber. I'd also imagine that some subscriber radios for Public Safety users would be replaced with Motorola radios, but theoretically their Harris subscribers should work because their current system is supposed to be running in TDMA mode.
Morgan State Univ was approved to become a Primary User, with the stipulation that their 50 subscribers use TDMA mode.
Naval District Washington was approved as an Interoperability User, with 300 subscriber that run in TDMA mode. Board members noted that NDW unit frequently run mutual aid calls in AA Co, and work with DNR on events in the Annapolis area.
Md Direct frequencies (not in RRDB currently) are designed to back up the TRS, and can be available for other uses.
National "Low Power" (not repeated) Channels are available primarily for "out-of-state" uses, and as "travel channels" between vehicles (in a relief convoy perhaps?)
Talbot 2 channel upgrade is complete as of mid November, and is expected to reduce system busies in the area. The system manager meets tomorrow with the "federal agency" who is allowing a FDMA radio to sit on Talbot's dispatch channel, which essentially ties up three resources when in use. I suppose they will "encourage them to upgrade or replace the offending subscriber. The Delaware FDMA situation is also being addressed with a meeting this week with "the right people in the room." The Talbot site is the second busiest in the system, and the Wye Mills tower receives the most traffic. The upgrade was funded by both the county and the state,
Garrett County will officially go live any day now. Coverage testing is complete, with 97% on street portable coverage - which is better than expected. Construction of the Table Rock ASR site will be completed in early 2019.
Phase 5. Staging completed. Backhaul testing in progress. Equipment is in the local warehouse, and the burning in process is beginning (possibly explaining the STMC site being online.) There will be 5 new simulcast sites, and two new towers constructed, one at Nice Bridge, and the other along the ICC at Georgia Ave. First site should be up in March 2019, and sites will be activated on a county-by-county basis, to be completed in 2020. Phase 5 is unique in that it uses Ethernet as the transport protocol.
7.16 upgrade. Apparently the mx contract with Motorola stipulates a system upgrade every two years or so. The backup cores get the update first, then operations are switched to the backup cores while the primary cores are upgraded. The process will take about 6 weeks starting in January but the rollover between zone controllers only takes 5-10 seconds, and is more or less transparent to users. Users are requested not to make any changes to their configurations for the period.
New Sites in existing service areas. The program has identified 16 locations that need enhancement, with 9 funded in the capital budget: Assateague, Cecilton, MTA Falls Road were mentioned (I thought Assateague was already up, unclear.) The Cherrytown Chicken ASR site (yes, that is the official name) will be installed on a commercial tower that also hosts a site for Carroll County's TRS. The state will glom onto Carroll's existing MW backhaul ring. No fiber service to the site. Somerset County will build a new tower site at the Crisfield VFD (presumably part of the upgrade of their current EDACS system) in 2019, and FIRST will use that tower to fill in coverage in that area with an ASR
FIRST is redesigning their CEN that supports the non-radio data part of the system. The old design was a bit of a hodge-podge of systems, the new one is more integrated, and will be phased in over several budget cycles.
Dorchester migration will occur in Feb-March after the system upgrade has been completed. Cecil will migrate after that, probably in the April timeframe.
There has been a discussion of a PSAP TG on the radio system, but apparently there have been some strong opinions expressed by some Users about options. The upcoming transition to NG911 technologies and future FirstNet applications might present a better way forward. [My opinion about this is whatever they decide, it must be standards based - there should be no incompatibilities introduced by competing vendors.]
In roughly chronological order - nothing earth-shatteringly new was discussed, except for St. Mary's:
STMC has applied as a Primary User, and the application was approved. They want to use FIRST as backup to their apparently troublesome Harris P25 system that is still running in FDMA mode (as of last month.) The news is that the county is evaluating a proposal from Motorola that would enable them migrate operations to FIRST. I'd assume this would mean adding ASRs to some of the county's existing sites, and adding the appropriate dispatch center equipment, and maybe some fiber. I'd also imagine that some subscriber radios for Public Safety users would be replaced with Motorola radios, but theoretically their Harris subscribers should work because their current system is supposed to be running in TDMA mode.
Morgan State Univ was approved to become a Primary User, with the stipulation that their 50 subscribers use TDMA mode.
Naval District Washington was approved as an Interoperability User, with 300 subscriber that run in TDMA mode. Board members noted that NDW unit frequently run mutual aid calls in AA Co, and work with DNR on events in the Annapolis area.
Md Direct frequencies (not in RRDB currently) are designed to back up the TRS, and can be available for other uses.
National "Low Power" (not repeated) Channels are available primarily for "out-of-state" uses, and as "travel channels" between vehicles (in a relief convoy perhaps?)
Talbot 2 channel upgrade is complete as of mid November, and is expected to reduce system busies in the area. The system manager meets tomorrow with the "federal agency" who is allowing a FDMA radio to sit on Talbot's dispatch channel, which essentially ties up three resources when in use. I suppose they will "encourage them to upgrade or replace the offending subscriber. The Delaware FDMA situation is also being addressed with a meeting this week with "the right people in the room." The Talbot site is the second busiest in the system, and the Wye Mills tower receives the most traffic. The upgrade was funded by both the county and the state,
Garrett County will officially go live any day now. Coverage testing is complete, with 97% on street portable coverage - which is better than expected. Construction of the Table Rock ASR site will be completed in early 2019.
Phase 5. Staging completed. Backhaul testing in progress. Equipment is in the local warehouse, and the burning in process is beginning (possibly explaining the STMC site being online.) There will be 5 new simulcast sites, and two new towers constructed, one at Nice Bridge, and the other along the ICC at Georgia Ave. First site should be up in March 2019, and sites will be activated on a county-by-county basis, to be completed in 2020. Phase 5 is unique in that it uses Ethernet as the transport protocol.
7.16 upgrade. Apparently the mx contract with Motorola stipulates a system upgrade every two years or so. The backup cores get the update first, then operations are switched to the backup cores while the primary cores are upgraded. The process will take about 6 weeks starting in January but the rollover between zone controllers only takes 5-10 seconds, and is more or less transparent to users. Users are requested not to make any changes to their configurations for the period.
New Sites in existing service areas. The program has identified 16 locations that need enhancement, with 9 funded in the capital budget: Assateague, Cecilton, MTA Falls Road were mentioned (I thought Assateague was already up, unclear.) The Cherrytown Chicken ASR site (yes, that is the official name) will be installed on a commercial tower that also hosts a site for Carroll County's TRS. The state will glom onto Carroll's existing MW backhaul ring. No fiber service to the site. Somerset County will build a new tower site at the Crisfield VFD (presumably part of the upgrade of their current EDACS system) in 2019, and FIRST will use that tower to fill in coverage in that area with an ASR
FIRST is redesigning their CEN that supports the non-radio data part of the system. The old design was a bit of a hodge-podge of systems, the new one is more integrated, and will be phased in over several budget cycles.
Dorchester migration will occur in Feb-March after the system upgrade has been completed. Cecil will migrate after that, probably in the April timeframe.
There has been a discussion of a PSAP TG on the radio system, but apparently there have been some strong opinions expressed by some Users about options. The upcoming transition to NG911 technologies and future FirstNet applications might present a better way forward. [My opinion about this is whatever they decide, it must be standards based - there should be no incompatibilities introduced by competing vendors.]
Queen Anne Sheriff Dispatch channel
I've noticed that some subscribers continue to Join the QAC Sheriff Dispatch TG, but are Denied when attempting to talk - unless they are capable of encryption because those subscriber radios get a channel Grant. This is from the logs - I'm not actually monitoring that TG.
I've noticed that some subscribers continue to Join the QAC Sheriff Dispatch TG, but are Denied when attempting to talk - unless they are capable of encryption because those subscriber radios get a channel Grant. This is from the logs - I'm not actually monitoring that TG.
Will be interesting to see what happens with Saint Mary's. I wonder if they decide to stay on their current system, will they get talkgroups on FiRST or just use MD-Tac's when they have radio issues.
I would also expect Talbot to have increased issues when Dorchester comes on since talkgroups will most likely be allowed to affiliate with Talbot. Probably in the future they will need to add even more frequencies unless they curtail QA, Caroline, & Dorchester talkgroup affiliations
