Misc Moto Questions....

[snoopyII]

I dont use big M radios, but my curiosity has gotten the best of me, so here goes...

1. If you were to buy a XTS that was previously programmed with a security key or advanced security key for that matter, (from what I understand it allows you to read, but prevents you from cloning, or altering the codeplug..right?) what good is it to you if you dont have the key?

2. What's the minimum flashcode requirement for a radio to operate on a P25 CAI system? Is it just Q806/G806 IMBE/APCO-25 Digital Operation? From what I've read CAI, and SmartZone/SmartZone Omnilink/SmartNet are completely different system setups, and therefore not synonomus.

bh

 

[immelmen]

I dont use big M radios, but my curiosity has gotten the best of me, so here goes...

1. If you were to buy a XTS that was previously programmed with a security key or advanced security key for that matter, (from what I understand it allows you to read, but prevents you from cloning, or altering the codeplug..right?) what good is it to you if you dont have the key?

If the radio has been hit with an ASK, you will need that ASK to make changes to the plug.

2. What's the minimum flashcode requirement for a radio to operate on a P25 CAI system? Is it just Q806/G806 IMBE/APCO-25 Digital Operation? From what I've read CAI, and SmartZone/SmartZone Omnilink/SmartNet are completely different system setups, and therefore not synonomus.

bh

Are you talking about trunking or conventional systems here? If you just want to do digital voice(CAI) conventional then your good with Q806.

If your talking about doing full blown P25 9600 trunking then you will need at least the following in the flash:

Q806 ASTRO Digital Operation
H38 SMARTZONE Systems Operation
Q173 SMARTZONE OMNILINK Multizone Operation
Q361 ASTRO 25 9600 Baud Trunking

 

[K8TEK]

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry8703e/4.2.1 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/105)

Since he is talking about system keys and mentioned a P25 "system" that would require Q361 as smartzone systems are not P25. They may have P25 voice, but all P25 systems have a 9600 bps control channel. Smartzone/smartnet is 3600 bps. But, if you actually had a radio on the system you are talking about you could look at the flashcode. This isn't the kind of question you ask hypothetically, though. You have some pretty specific details.

 

[immelmen]

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry8703e/4.2.1 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.1 VendorID/105)

Since he is talking about system keys and mentioned a P25 "system" that would require Q361 as smartzone systems are not P25. They may have P25 voice, but all P25 systems have a 9600 bps control channel. Smartzone/smartnet is 3600 bps.

Not exactly. I think you might need to clarify what your trying to say here because H38 Smartzone is a "prerequisite" for Q361 9600 trunking(as is Q173 SZ Omnilink). You cannot have Q361 without having H38 and Q173 first.

Not all Smartzone systems are P25(9600).....But all P25(9600) systems are Smartzone.

To the OP: What system specifically are you interested in? That will make it a whole lot easier to determine what you need.

 

[snoopyII]

There was the thread floating around here discussing the use of an XTS over a scanner. This thread went on for severeal years and a dozen pages. The pros and cons as well as the legalities and so forth have already be discussed at length, and we NEED NOT go into it any further. A little research on eBay shows that flash codes vary widely, and the radios are very popular and hold their value well. The way I understand it the system key resides in the radio, so if you got one, how do you work around it to program for your needs? It seems to me if you got one that was ASK'd your screwed. I would hate to spend that kind of money on a radio that may have limited functionality.

So, doesnt APCO set the industry standards for a P25 Standard CAI system? These standards are open to any manufacturer who whises to produce P25 compliant equipment. How can all P25 systems be SmartZone? SmartZone/Net etc, are'nt they proprietary technologies of motorola? Example, Indiana sunk their money into a SmartZone Omnilink system so the end user are obligated to use motorola equipment, are they not? Wyoming is investing into a P25 CAI and the end user can use Motorola, Kenwood, M/A Com, whoever gives them the lowest bid. So I guess I'm interested in the general theory.

 

[ILMRadioMan]

How can all P25 systems be SmartZone? SmartZone/Net etc, are'nt they proprietary technologies of motorola?

P25 Systems arent "smartzone". You are correct that "smartzone" is proprietary.

Example, Indiana sunk their money into a SmartZone Omnilink system so the end user are obligated to use motorola equipment, are they not?

Incorrect. EF Johnson also produces radios that work on smartzone omnilink systems.

Wyoming is investing into a P25 CAI and the end user can use Motorola, Kenwood, M/A Com, whoever gives them the lowest bid.

That is accurate. A true P25 system is supposed to be usable by many manufacturers.

 

[snoopyII]

My apologies, I did know that EF Johnson signed a licencing agreement with motorola. The general point I was trying to make ( and did it poorly)is your not going to see a Kenwood operating on a SmartZone system anytime soon. So, radio flashed with Q806/G806 IMBE/APCO-25 Digital Operation should operate on a P25CAI regardless of what other features are included in the flashcode.

 

[ILMRadioMan]

Correct.

Competition breeds better prices.

 

[N0WRE]

A system key can be loaded to change what you need to even if loaded as a software key there are two types of keys Advanced System Key (ASK) and a software key (SK) can both be loaded to program what you want on the radio. WYOLink has a ASK loaded into the radio for the system when it comes programmed from Motorola but can be changed with a software key loaded into the program. A system key generator for the system you need is whats needed for this but I would not recommend trying it unless you are skilled in programming trunking radios. WYOLink admins are touchy about people having radios that aren't sent from Motorola programmed for the system. If your in Colorado then the system is a bit different in the 800MHz band. I don't think there is a way to listen to the WYOLink system using the "Hidden Talkgroups" option that every one keeps talking about as its VHF trunked and the system from what I have been told needs top have a radio that will affiliate with the system to make it work.
Someone please step in here and correct me if I am wrong about my post but as I have said I am still learning about our system,

 

[ILMRadioMan]

One part that is incorrect:

If a radio is programmed with an ASK, a software key will not work.


And the only way for an ASK to be removed is to be sent in to Motorola.

However, I think another point of clarification is this: "Motorola" proper does not program radios generally. Motorola Service Shops do, but they are companies that represent Motorola....they arent actually a part of Motorola.

 

[immelmen]

A few things that need to be straightened out....

The way I understand it the system key resides in the radio,.....

No, legacy system keys resides on the computer that is used for programing. An ASK resides on a physical device similar to an Ibuton....both function to allow the CPS to modify trunking parameters in a codeplug.

... so if you got one, how do you work around it to program for your needs? It seems to me if you got one that was ASK'd your screwed. I would hate to spend that kind of money on a radio that may have limited functionality.

If your radio has been hit with an ASK, you have two options. Have the original holder of the ASK remove the write protection from the plug, or send it to Motorola....good luck. Legacy keys are much easier to deal with.

So, doesnt APCO set the industry standards for a P25 Standard CAI system?

Yes, they set the requirements and select the winner, but they don't design the technology.

These standards are open to any manufacturer who whises to produce P25 compliant equipment. How can all P25 systems be SmartZone? SmartZone/Net etc, are'nt they proprietary technologies of motorola? .

P25 Systems arent "smartzone".......

.......A true P25 system is supposed to be usable by many manufacturers.

They actually are Smartzone in the same way that the CAI of Project 25 is a proprietary vocoder, which Digital Voice Systems, Inc. holds the IP rights to and they call it IMBE......The trunking system APCO settled on to be the P25 standard is based on proprietary technology Motorola holds the IP rights to, and they call it Smartzone ...remember, Smartzone does not automatically mean Type II (which carries a 3600 control channel)

So...no matter what brand radio your using, P25 CAI is IMBE, and P25 9600 TRS's are Smartzone (phase 1, anyway). The catch to being the winners is they must share their technology...here is a quote from P25.org:

"A stipulation of candidate technologies for P25 standards is that they be licensed to other manufacturers participating in the P25 Memorandum of Understanding. Motorola and other manufacturers disclose and license IPR accordingly to enable the technology."

as an aside, Moto was in the running for CAI as well, but lost...that vocoder is VSELP

Example, Indiana sunk their money into a SmartZone Omnilink system so the end user are obligated to use motorola equipment, are they not?

This is a Motorola Type II system, Moto does not have to share Type II with anyone they dont want to.

Wyoming is investing into a P25 CAI and the end user can use Motorola, Kenwood, M/A Com, whoever gives them the lowest bid. So I guess I'm interested in the general theory.

You can use any of those companies radios but Moto and DVSI hold the rights to the technology.

So, radio flashed with Q806/G806 IMBE/APCO-25 Digital Operation should operate on a P25CAI regardless of what other features are included in the flashcode.

Here is the whole point.... your statement above is not correct if, when you say P25CAI, you mean a P25 Trunking system. If you buy a radio with just Q806 in the flash, you are buying a radio capable of digital voice on conventional channels only!! Q806 has nothing to do with trunking. If you want a radio capable of trunking a Project 25 TRS with a 9600 control channel you MUST have ALL of the following in the flashcode:

Q806 ASTRO Digital Operation--------------------->This is IMBE digital voice, the CAI of P25
H38 SMARTZONE Systems Operation--------------------------\
Q173 SMARTZONE OMNILINK Multizone Operation----------> These 3 make up the trunking.
Q361 ASTRO 25 9600 Baud Trunking----------------------------/

 

[snoopyII]

Ok, I got it. Basically motorola had to licence out the smartzone technology because APCO built their P25 standard on that platform. Which in the end must have meant some big $$ for them, I really can't see them letting that go for free. See now, we had to go a little way around the block to get there, but this has been by far a more useful discussion than anything else I have read, and believe me I have read alot. That wasnt so hard was it?

 

[ILMRadioMan]

Immelmen, I agree with what you are saying to a point, but my point is this: If you were to buy a P25 system other than motorola, you arent going to see it say anywhere "Smartzone".

The technology is there, but it isnt "smartzone" per se, because only motorola systems are labeled as "smartzone".

That being said, while immelmen is right about the trunking systems, P25 does not ALWAYS equal trunking.

As he pointed out the flash code you spoke of would ONLY allow for P25 conventional communications.

However, it IS still P25. Just not a trunking system.


P25 is not dependent on a trunking / conventional / (anything else?) system.

 

[immelmen]

Well, I guess you can call it what ever you want but it is what it is.......Kinda like how Motorola labels digital voice "Astro digital", but I think everyone would agree the Q806 Astro radio is still transmitting IMBE......

As for the P25 conventional vs. trunking....I never said P25 was trunking only, but it was obvious that trunking is what the OP was asking about....I thought I addressed that in the first reply to this thread.