MOH communications

[Forts]

**Moderator Edit by mciupa** The first twelve MOH specific posts in this thread were split from the monster PSRN General Discussion thread

If the agency they are patching to is encrypted, then the patch will be as well.

As for EMS paging, I'm not sure how that's going to be handled... But P-COM is going encrypted as well.

 

[gary123]

Patching is done at the console level and not the RF. The dispatcher just decides what audio channel to link with what audio channel. This eliminates the need for sharing keys and even system compatibility IE DMR to P25.

FYI this is how the current EMS to hospital patches work. The dispatcher uses the 'wireline' link between the hospital and the Tac TG the EMS unit is on.

 

[mikewazowski]

FYI this is how the current EMS to hospital patches work. The dispatcher uses the 'wireline' link between the hospital and the Tac TG the EMS unit is on.

Not quite. The dispatcher patches the TAC group and the Hospital group together. The hospital has an MCS2000 sitting on the Hospital group which they use to communicate with the ambulance.

 

[rneals]

Not quite. The dispatcher patches the TAC group and the Hospital group together. The hospital has an MCS2000 sitting on the Hospital group which they use to communicate with the ambulance.

I suspect they do this so the Ambulance-Hospital radio traffic is logged on the CACC voice recorder which is driven from audio outputs on the console system. Technically, they could use a trunked system private call directly from Ambulance to Hospital, or have the Ambulance move to the Hospital Talkgroup. But those would not drop audio at the CACC for logging.

 

[mikewazowski]

They do it because it's the simplest way. Ambulance only has to change to one of the few TAC channels they have available in their zone and the hospital has to do nothing.

 

[rneals]

They do it because it's the simplest way. Ambulance only has to change to one of the few TAC channels they have available in their zone and the hospital has to do nothing.

And for logging/recording for legal record keeping because FleetNet RF channels are not logged.


Drove past Lindsay CACC today and they have the Microwave antenna mounted, and two VHF Sinclair single folded dipole antennas on the north side of the new tower.

Microwave antenna is about 30" diam. and pointing at Sunderland. Underground conduit bank under the parking lot and to the main building appears substantially complete. Rolls of 7/8 heliax and other cable are at the base of the tower, waiting for pulling into the main building.

Curious if anyone has had eyes on Georgian CACC recently and if there is a new tower at Georgian for their microwave link to Sunderland.

 

[rneals]

So I know almost everything is going to be encrypted and obviously P25P2, but I do have to ask about a couple of things. Would that include the OPP patches with the local departments (for instance LPS)?

For EMS wouldn’t the base station pagers still be analogue? I’m not sure how that would work.

Are they killing off MOH Paging and MOH provincial Common?

There are P25 Phase II pagers, but how well they work on a large multicast Smartnet trunked system with hundreds of control and voice channels is a question I can't find much info on. I see some info that suggests they support encryption.

G-Series P25 Voice Pager | Unication

Unication's G-Series Voice Pager is the industry’s first and only P25 Voice Pager. P25 Digital paging allows migration from a legacy 2-tone network to a P25 Network; which provides improved coverage, excellent voice clarity and superior reliability.

www.unicationusa.com

The problem is that PSRN will have an RF coverage profile designed for Mobile radios with a proper 1/4 wave antenna on a vehicle ground plane. Portable devices/pagers needs considerable higher RF levels for reliable coverage.
The MOH analog paging systems are usually a UHF-low link with VHF drop transmitters at key locations such as hospitals, ambulance bases and fire stations around urban areas.

A really sensible outcome would be deployment of an Ontario-wide emergency paging network for EMS, Fire and other emergency services.
Commercial paging services are winding down. As an example, a few of the Peterborough County Fire Volunteer Fire Departments are having to develop their own paging systems, or pay much higher costs to have the commercial provider service their needs.
Technology for a new and separate encrypted paging network (with paging base stations in urban areas) might look like the gear from Prism-IPX and focus on digital messages.

Prism-IPX Systems | Critical Messaging Solutions | Secure Messaging

Prism-IPX Systems critical messaging solutions include radio paging systems, IP based transmitter control systems and paging message encryption.

www.prism-ipx.com

 

[mikewazowski]

MOH doesn't use portable pagers as far as I know. They have base radios at each station which sit on 149.440MHz and open up for the appropriate two tone sequence.

When they move to PSRN, the most likely scenario is they replace the old analog base station radio with a P25 capable radio and either continue to use two tone over P25 or more than likely, a P25 call alert sent to the base station radio.

Unication products do not do Smartnet. That's an old proprietary Motorola trunking format so they don't support it. They do P25 trunking easily and support RC4, DES and AES encryption. It would be an option but like I said, the MOH doesn't carry portable pagers. Since they can easily handle P25 trunking, all they need are the control channels and I believe the limit is 64 which will most likely handle PSRN.

As far as a Ontario-wide paging network, that's a huge waste of money. Most departments use their own systems so there's very little additional cost. Most radios already have a paging function so no additional equipment is needed. I only knew of one department that used a commercial service for it's paging needs. Some are augmenting their paging with cellular apps which give details of the call and allow the firefighters to mark themselves enroute so they know if they need to page additional stations for more manpower.

 

[Muxlow]

I've seen some medics in Essex County who still carry pagers. I think they were a Motorola KeyNote or something similar. Tiny little thing
I'll ask a buddy whose fire dept gets paged on the same . 149.44 what they are going to do if anything at all?

 

[gary123]

EMS still carry pagers. I have seen Supervisors with both KeyNote and Minitor VI pagers. Since the 149.440 frequency is not really part of the PSRN system, I see no reason for them to even touch that portion. Ideally, they should expand it to cover all outgoing calls to provide redundancy on the dispatched calls. There is also nothing stopping any new base radio just having the 149.44 programmed into it. APX supports analog QCII decode.

The Minitor VI have voice storage. This allows the user to replay the call directly rather than request a repeat. Another potential advantage will be the audio clarity difference between the analog and the TDMA AMBE decoded voice.

 

[rneals]

MOH doesn't use portable pagers as far as I know. They have base radios at each station which sit on 149.440MHz and open up for the appropriate two tone sequence.

When they move to PSRN, the most likely scenario is they replace the old analog base station radio with a P25 capable radio and either continue to use two tone over P25 or more than likely, a P25 call alert sent to the base station radio.

Unication products do not do Smartnet. That's an old proprietary Motorola trunking format so they don't support it. They do P25 trunking easily and support RC4, DES and AES encryption. It would be an option but like I said, the MOH doesn't carry portable pagers. Since they can easily handle P25 trunking, all they need are the control channels and I believe the limit is 64 which will most likely handle PSRN.

As far as a Ontario-wide paging network, that's a huge waste of money. Most departments use their own systems so there's very little additional cost. Most radios already have a paging function so no additional equipment is needed. I only knew of one department that used a commercial service for it's paging needs. Some are augmenting their paging with cellular apps which give details of the call and allow the firefighters to mark themselves enroute so they know if they need to page additional stations for more manpower.

You've glossed over a number of issues, but no point arguing with you.

 

[gary123]

I do know that the station alert is not sent over the pagers for every call. Even when units are 'on the air'.

Maybe someone in EMS can help by describing how calls are sent to the specific station, as well as when they are paged or not paged. This would clear up a lot of the unknowns.
I can say 100% that my local station is not paged for every call, nor is there any FleetNet activity or 149.44 when calls are sent. Often I just hear the EMS vehicle sirens start up as they leave the station.

 

[Gymbag]

My understanding is that 149.440 is a completely different channel separate from FleetNet. It has never been part of FleetNet.

 

[Muxlow]

Lambton and Chatham kent EMS gets paged on 149.44 for every call unless they have not booked back at base. Then they just call that unit on the radio and if they dont answer then off goes the pager

 

[exkalibur]

Toronto dispatches a lot of their calls by phone when a crew is in the station.

I would expect the 149.440 frequency will remain once PSRN is fully implemented. I think there used to be another one used in Niagara for paging in addition to the 149.440 as well.

 

[rneals]

Toronto dispatches a lot of their calls by phone when a crew is in the station.

I would expect the 149.440 frequency will remain once PSRN is fully implemented. I think there used to be another one used in Niagara for paging in addition to the 149.440 as well.

I think 149.440 paging is active in Niagara, I've heard them page out.
Niagara has a UHF link transmitter at Fonthill, and 9 VHF drop transmitters including at Fonthill for coverage.
Roughly twice as many towers as fleetnet in the similar area to provide better RF coverage for pagers.
Here's a picture of the Niagara-On-The-Lake EMS station which has a self-standing tower, VHF antenna and UHF link antenna pointing at Fonthill.

 

[rneals]

My understanding is that 149.440 is a completely different channel separate from FleetNet. It has never been part of FleetNet.

Correct, it was originally used in the old MOH FM simplex system from 30 years ago.
Some CACCs kept paging, and other seem to have retired it.

Emergency First Response Teams / Volunteer Fire in Northern Ontario remote communities were also dispatched on this frequency.
The MOH typically had a Motorola Base Station, with a Telephone Interconnect that did paging. Usually either located at the hospital or the volunteer fire department. Pickle Lake (Central Patricia), Attawapiskat, come to mind.

The frequency itself is rather valuable in that it is a province wide assignment that can be used anywhere in Ontario.

 

[Radioguy789]

Up here in Zone 3, they all still use and carry pagers, either Minitor 5 or 6. They still get paged out on 149.440.

Our ambulance crews here where I am use an amplified charger with the pager inside it. If not that, then maybe a radio. Our two person crew go home at night and are on call and carry their pager with them. When a call comes in during the night or early morning, they will get it on their pager. So pagers are still used here. Our Volunteer Fire Dept all carry a pager and get paged out on their own FD freq.

 

[Gymbag]

Up here in Zone 3, they all still use and carry pagers, either Minitor 5 or 6. They still get paged out on 149.440.

Our ambulance crews here where I am use an amplified charger with the pager inside it. If not that, then maybe a radio. Our two person crew go home at night and are on call and carry their pager with them. When a call comes in during the night or early morning, they will get it on their pager. So pagers are still used here. Our Volunteer Fire Dept all carry a pager and get paged out on their own FD freq.

How far north are you?

 

[Radioguy789]

I am in Northeastern Ontario. North of Sudbury