Motorola Repeater + Portables w/ Retevis Portables

[MaxPigs]

Hey Folks! Looking for a bit of advice:

I run a ski school in the PNW, we have been renting a repeater w/ 16x portables for the last 8 years. Our fees are increasing and we are doing a cost benefit analysis on purchasing some or part of our package. We have been most successful with a digital UHF system, with a repeater running 2x channels, and a couple of talk around channels as well. The ski area we operate at is a separate business entity and while we have discussed combining forces, that is not an option that we can move forward with (turn over at the resort, liability concerns ect). For the past couple of years we have had 16x XPR7550e portables and a SLR 5700 repeater w/ duplexer and antenna. This has been rock solid and worked great.

We have two primary user groups, a team of 6-8 "Admin/managers" who are use the radios around 4 days a week and are assigned a radio, and we also assign about 6-8 radios out to our instructors. We use these radios about 4 days a week for about 3 months. Though if we own our own hardware we may use them for close to 5 months. The radios our out in the elements (rain/snow/cold) for most of their use.

We have been contemplating a partial purchase of radios to standardize our costs annually, and most recently we have been contemplating the following:

• Purchasing 6-8 used XPR 3500e for our "Admin group"
• Purchasing 8-10 Retevis radios for our "instructor group"
  • We are looking at the NR30D or RT29D
• Purchasing a repeater freq, and 1 or 2 talk around freqs
  • Working with a appropriate dealer or frequency coordinator to purchase these licenses.
• Renting the SLR repeater and antenna set tup annually
  • Thought process is that this is the biggest single failure point, so having the maintenance and reliability on someone else is preferred here
• Potentially purchasing a RETEVIS DMR repeater for non-peak seasons

We know that the Retevis are not the best radios, but considering that our instructors (many of them are teens) are using them, we would consider them mostly a consumable and plan to have some spares at all times. Our team is pretty tech savy and have done CHIRP programming before as well as electronics repair, so maintaining the system once we understood how everything worked would be straight forward enough for us.

Questions we have for the group:

• Is there a dealer/provider that specializes in mixed systems like this? Most of our local folks want to sell us ONLY their brand of radios
• Can we get the Retevis radios to work with the motorola repeaters and radios? (my research has said yes, but I want to check for any gotchas)
• Is there another brand of radio that we should be looking at other then retevis?
  • We want little to no keypad, high IP ratings, ideally a non 2 pin speakermic connector, and long battery life
• Could we program a Retevis DMR repeater to work with the motorola's & retevis radios on the same frequencies when we are not renting the moto repeater? Ideally without any programming changes?
• Anything that we are missing/gotchas....

Appreciate any insights you might have!

 

[Wicho]

Do you really want to rely on Retevis if your instructors need to call for help because a student fell and broke a leg, got knocked out after falling, or worse? Think liability, potential for loss of life, etc. Yes, Retevis is better than nothing but...you currently have quality equipment. Don't be penny wise and pound foolish.

I'm not a radio snob but do believe in the right tool for the job. If you want to stop renting, hire a professional to plan, configure and set things up and buy good radios/repeater/equipment that is up to the job and will be reliable. And don't forget about maintenance.

Skip the CCRs.

 

[RaleighGuy]

We know that the Retevis are not the best radios, but considering that our instructors (many of them are teens) are using them, we would consider them mostly a consumable and plan to have some spares at all times.

Questions we have for the group:

• Is there a dealer/provider that specializes in mixed systems like this? Most of our local folks want to sell us ONLY their brand of radios

Do you really want to rely on Retevis if your instructors need to call for help because a student fell and broke a leg, got knocked out after falling, or worse? Think liability, potential for loss of life, etc. Yes, Retevis is better than nothing but...you currently have quality equipment. Don't be penny wise and pound foolish.

I'm not a radio snob but do believe in the right tool for the job. If you want to stop renting, hire a professional to plan, configure and set things up and buy good radios/repeater/equipment that is up to the job and will be reliable. And don't forget about maintenance.

Skip the CCRs.

The reason your dealer/provider wants to provide ONLY their brand is they know the importance of reliable equipment. I have to agree with @Wicho on this one. Ask yourself if you would settle on other equipment for the safety/liability of your guest that "are not the best" and "mostly consumable"? If you were in a warehouse, or on a construction site, where lives were not on the line every day perhaps my answer would be different. Just my thinking.

 

[MaxPigs]

Do you really want to rely on Retevis if your instructors need to call for help because a student fell and broke a leg, got knocked out after falling, or worse? Think liability, potential for loss of life, etc. Yes, Retevis is better than nothing but...you currently have quality equipment. Don't be penny wise and pound foolish.

I'm not a radio snob but do believe in the right tool for the job. If you want to stop renting, hire a professional to plan, configure and set things up and buy good radios/repeater/equipment that is up to the job and will be reliable. And don't forget about maintenance.

Skip the CCRs.

All good points!

I would agree if this was a life saving issue, in our instance we do not and cannot provide first aid or manage that process. Our ski patrol does this and we dispatch them through central dispatch which is reached by phone. Basically if someone is hurt, the instructor is required to call ski patrol. Our radios are just used for class coordination/updates and not life safety.

I am also definitely working to keep our relationship with our dealer! I appreciate and understand there offerings and service. We are just looking at all options.

 

[alcahuete]

The absolute first thing I would look for is RAS (Restricted Access to System). It is used to keep unauthorized radios off the system, and in the case of a rental, can be used to keep non-rented radios off the system as well.

If RAS is enabled on the repeater, you have no choice but to use Mototrbo radios.

Secondly, you are operating under the rental company's FCC license, I'm assuming? My guess is that they will not allow you to use those Retevis radios under their license. If those radios are not Part 90 certified, there is no chance they would allow you to use them, if they are a reputable company.

 

[mmckenna]

We know that the Retevis are not the best radios, but considering that our instructors (many of them are teens) are using them, we would consider them mostly a consumable and plan to have some spares at all times. Our team is pretty tech savy and have done CHIRP programming before as well as electronics repair, so maintaining the system once we understood how everything worked would be straight forward enough for us.

So, I can give you some real world experience here.
I had a very remote/rugged site that I 'inherited' at work about 5 years ago. They had a bunch of Baofengs and a few cheap repeaters running. I'm sure I'll get flamed for this, but I'd rate the Retevis and Baofengs all in the "Cheap Chinese Radio" category.
The radios were crappy performers, and they did not stand up to any sort of use other than carefully sitting on a desk nowhere near the edge where they might fall off. They did not survive use in the back country.
The cheap repeaters were an awful mess that had been cobbled together using mostly hobby grade/amateur radio grade parts.

With limited budget, I got tasked trying to make that arrangement work. First thing I did was remove all the CCR's and replace them with Kenwood radios. That improved performance and the radios were up to the task of use in a rugged/outdoor environment.

Next step was to replace the cheap repeaters.


I fully understand budget limitations and trying to be careful with someone else's money, but there comes a point when it's more expensive and risky to rely on unsuitable equipment. Being out on the mountain, you really run the risk of someone getting injured, and getting help to them quickly will be important. You don't want to be relying on the cheapest radio you can find that may or may not work.

Cheap radios will fail in heavy use outdoors in the real world. You'll be replacing them frequently and your staff will quickly realize they are unreliable. Be careful you are not the one they blame for that. I've seen it happen.

A couple of name brand radios that are designed for this sort of application, not hobby use, will easily outlast the CCR's and you'll save money in the long run.

Questions we have for the group:

• Is there a dealer/provider that specializes in mixed systems like this? Most of our local folks want to sell us ONLY their brand of radios

Be careful if you find one. Most reputable shops won't want to touch a system like this where Cheap Chinese Radios are going to be in the mix. They'll know that it'll be a mess and they won't want to be on the hook for such a setup. Usually people that are willing to try to make a mix of low end gear work in an environment like this don't know what they are getting into and will either flake or keep charging you money in the hopes that eventually they'll make it work.

• Can we get the Retevis radios to work with the motorola repeaters and radios? (my research has said yes, but I want to check for any gotchas)

They should work, but I'd be careful.
There are a lot of complex rules/regulations regarding which equipment can legally be used, and a lot of these Cheap Chinese Radios do not meet those requirements. The licensing requires use of legal equipment, with no waivers for low budgets or "didn't know".

• Is there another brand of radio that we should be looking at other then retevis?
  • We want little to no keypad, high IP ratings, ideally a non 2 pin speakermic connector, and long battery life

Kenwood NX-1000 line. I've got about 80 of those at work for non-public safety users that just need basic radios. Reasonable price, durable, lots of accessories, and a company that will back them up.

• Anything that we are missing/gotchas....

Appreciate any insights you might have!

Don't try to do this all yourself. Nothing with a repeater is "plug-n-play". Design is critical and having someone who understands antennas, radiation patterns, duplexers, FCC rules, etc. is necessary.

Frequency coordination is required and not something you can do yourself. Usually the frequency coordinator will do the licensing paperwork for you, and that will save a lot of headaches.

I'd really caution against the 'low budget' and cheap radio approach to this. It won't work out in the long run, and you'll just end up spending more money down the road to fix ongoing issues.

 

[tweiss3]

This all depends on if your company owns the FCC license, or if the company you are renting from owns the FCC license. Only proceed with changes if your company owns the license, if the rental owns the license, you are stuck with what they say.

If RAS isn't used, give a Kenwood dealer a call and have Moto and Kenwood provide you completive prices for radios. The NX1300DUK were $375 list price (bare radio) or a hair more with charger/battery. Any quantity and they can likely beat list prices significantly. I bet they are way more competitive than Moto, and way better than the Retevis you proposed.

For what it's worth, every XPR3500/e I have come across needed the antenna socket resoldered to the main board. They are also EOL, so getting serviced by Motorola isn't possible anymore, unless you had an existing service contract. They want you to buy the R3/R5 radios now.

 

[mmckenna]

Basically if someone is hurt, the instructor is required to call ski patrol. Our radios are just used for class coordination/updates and not life safety.

OK, that's good, but radios will still get relied upon by the staff, and any shortcomings will lead to frustration. That frustration will result in more costs to your organization as either the equipment will be replaced with appropriate gear, or you'll end up tossing your investment and going back to rented services.

Honestly, in cases like this, especially with only a 4-5 months a year need for radios, rental is your better option. Let someone else maintain the system, share ongoing costs and deal with all the other headaches that this equipment brings.

And as @alcahuete said so well:

The absolute first thing I would look for is RAS (Restricted Access to System). It is used to keep unauthorized radios off the system, and in the case of a rental, can be used to keep non-rented radios off the system as well.

If RAS is enabled on the repeater, you have no choice but to use Mototrbo radios.

Secondly, you are operating under the rental company's FCC license, I'm assuming? My guess is that they will not allow you to use those Retevis radios under their license. If those radios are not Part 90 certified, there is no chance they would allow you to use them, if they are a reputable company.

If you are currently renting repeater service, adding more radios on your own may not be allowed by the owner. Usually these systems have some level of controlled access. That may be a trunked system were access is controlled by radio ID, or it may be a shared repeater where loading/costs are based on the number of users.
In almost all cases, the owner of said repeater will not permit you to add more radios on their repeater without permission and increase costs. FCC rules specifically prohibit you adding additional radios on a system under someone else's license without their permission.

 

[TampaTyron]

As another radio professional, I concur with the above posts. You have received tens of thousands of dollars in free consulting. You are benefiting from over 100 years of radio expertise.

-Do not mix fleets (Personal experience here!)
-Kenwood NX radios are very value oriented (I am a hard core Moto guy, the KW stuff is cheap, available, and good enough for a LOT of jobs!)
-Have a professional design and maintain the system (Not all hammies are the same tech level, not all radio shops are the same tech level)
-Yes it isn't life safety by definition but if someone has an emergency and cannot call for help- what is the penalty?

TT

 

[nokones]

I would not buy the Retevis or any cheap Chinese radio for any reason including using them as paperweights.

Personally, I would stay with one brand such as Motorola or Kenwood. Also, I would stay with the same end user model radio so that you are only supporting one model with the same accessories such as batteries, holsters, speaker mics, battery chargers, etc.

Operationally, you need to decide if it is imperative that you be able to have separate operational conversations occurring simultaneously and separate from each other and if the communication needs to be private or not, that will determine if you need digital or analog and if DMR is required for providing simultaneous conversations between user groups.

If the money is a concern, you will need to determine operationally if you can function with a single analog conventional repeater or a couple of repeaters if the frequencies are available.

Also, will a simplex channel provide adequate portable coverage with all the users throughout your operational area. If so, maybe a radio base station at the main/home base may be a way to go.

If you keep it simple and meet your communications needs, you will keep the cost down.

If you need the privacy, the separate and simultaneous communications, the cost will increase significantly not only for the repeater and base station, but also the end end user equipment.

 

[MTS2000des]

Do you really want to rely on Retevis if your instructors need to call for help because a student fell and broke a leg, got knocked out after falling, or worse? Think liability, potential for loss of life, etc. Yes, Retevis is better than nothing but...you currently have quality equipment. Don't be penny wise and pound foolish.

I'm not a radio snob but do believe in the right tool for the job. If you want to stop renting, hire a professional to plan, configure and set things up and buy good radios/repeater/equipment that is up to the job and will be reliable. And don't forget about maintenance.

Skip the CCRs.

Very well said. While your work may not be an IDLH environment, it is still a professional setting, and agencies like OSHA, state department of health and safety, etc may have jurisdiction. As I always say, it's all good, until it isn't. Do it right and skip the low rent trash designed and intended for hobbyist/amateurs and procure from actual local LMR dealers, do everything right as far as system design/licensing, and sleep well at night. Or don't and gamble. Many fellow pros have spoken and are all saying the same thing thus they all can't be liars.

 

[MaxPigs]

Thanks everyone! I really do appreciate your insights!

I definitely plan to keep working with our local dealer(s). I have one that we have had a relationship with for a long time (through several businesses), and would love to keep that relationship going.

-Noted on the Retevis part 90 issues. I had not connected the dots there properly.
-Appreciate the heads up on the kenwood radios, those are an interesting option
-If we purchase any radios, we would be buying licenses and working with our dealer or another frequency coordinator to purchase those frequencies
-We would not add radios to rented infrastructure without getting approval from the rental vendor.


Overall lots of good points and I appreciate everyone's insights! Does anyone have any kenwood dealer recommendations in the PNW?

 

[mmckenna]

-If we purchase any radios, we would be buying licenses and working with our dealer or another frequency coordinator to purchase those frequencies

Just for clarification, you are not "purchasing" frequencies. The frequency coordinator will find ones that have a low level of interference risk. Those frequencies will be licensed to your agency for 10 years at a time. Every 10 years, they'll need to renew the license.

Think of it more as "renting".

A good dealer can handle all that for you. They'll know the in's and out's and save you a lot of headaches. It is possible to hire the frequency coordinator yourself and have them handle the licensing. Might save you a few bucks, but often it's just easier to let one dealer handle everything for you. There are some details in the process that require some understanding, and the learning curve can be a bit steep.


No recommendations on PNW dealers, but there are good ones out there.