NCVEC Form 605 SSN requirement

[mmckenna]

Them asking for a SSN is a red flag also. The SSN (or TIN) was removed from the forms back in 2003. SSN isn't supposed to be used as identification, and you shouldn't give it out to anyone who asks, unless you are applying for a job, federal benefits, etc.

Sounds like the VEC messed up on this one. If they lost the paper work, see if they'll let you take the test again for free. There is no cost to apply for the license with the FCC, but the VE's can charge for administration of the test, etc.

VE's will also vary on how quickly they process the paper work. Some will do it right away and you'll have your license in a few days. Some drag their feet and it can take weeks. But, it does sound like they messed up. The fact you don't have the paper work showing the successful completion of the test is odd.

 

[N0IU]

Them asking for a SSN is a red flag also. The SSN (or TIN) was removed from the forms back in 2003. SSN isn't supposed to be used as identification, and you shouldn't give it out to anyone who asks, unless you are applying for a job, federal benefits, etc.

Which forms? The current NCVEC Form 605, effective February 2010, requires either an applicant's Social Security Number, Tax Identification Number (TIN) or Federal Registration Number (FRN). As an unlicensed person who has never done business with the FCC, the only option is to supply your Social Security Number. Once you become licensed, you would use your FRN.

From the current ARRL VE Manual:

FCC will not act on any license request unless one of these numbers is supplied (as required by the Debt Collection Improvement Act, enacted by the US Congress in 1996). If the applicant has an FRN, this number must be used, or the FCC will return the form unprocessed.

VE's will also vary on how quickly they process the paper work. Some will do it right away and you'll have your license in a few days. Some drag their feet and it can take weeks.

I don't know what the other VEC requirements are, but ARRL VE teams are required to submit their paperwork within 10 days after the completion of the test session.

 

[mmckenna]

Which forms? The current NCVEC Form 605, effective February 2010, requires either an applicant's Social Security Number, Tax Identification Number (TIN) or Federal Registration Number (FRN). As an unlicensed person who has never done business with the FCC, the only option is to supply your Social Security Number. Once you become licensed, you would use your FRN.

The form 605 from the FCC.gov website doesn't have a field for SSN, only the FRN. The NCVEC Form 605 is not an FCC form. In fact, it clearly states: "DO NOT SEND THIS FORM TO THE FCC - THIS IS NOT AN FCC FORM. IF THIS FORM IS SENT TO THE FCC, FCC WILL RETURN IT TO YOU WITHOUT ACTION."

So, the VECs are collecting SSN's. I'm sure I put my SSN number on it when I was younger, but I certainly wouldn't do it now. I would encourage anyone that was going to apply for an FCC license to first get their FRN. I don't know who the VE's are and I personally wouldn't be comfortable handing out my SSN to them.

The ARRL isn't the FCC, and the ARRL isn't a government entity. The ARRL/VE's collecting SSN's is something that doesn't sit right with me. Some people may have no qualms at all handing out their SSN to strangers. I know at work we are strictly forbidden from doing anything that touches SSN due to the risks associated with that information being hacked. The ARRL would be wise to reconsider how they handle this. Just because they have been doing it for years doesn't make it OK.

I don't know what the other VEC requirements are, but ARRL VE teams are required to submit their paperwork within 10 days after the completion of the test session.

Required isn't the same as actually doing it. When my wife, and a few other family members got their tickets a few years back, the VE's administering the test sat on the paperwork for a few weeks. I don't know if they were ARRL or not, doesn't matter to me at this point.

 

[AK9R]

The current NCVEC Form 605, effective February 2010, requires either an applicant's Social Security Number, Tax Identification Number (TIN) or Federal Registration Number (FRN). As an unlicensed person who has never done business with the FCC, the only option is to supply your Social Security Number. Once you become licensed, you would use your FRN.

That is quite true. In order to get an FRN, you have to give the FCC your SSN or TIN. NCVEC Form 605 asks for your SSN, TIN, or FRN in order meet FCC requirements.

Here's a quote from the FCC's web site regarding the collection of SSNs:

The Debt Collection Improvement Act of 1996 (DCIA) requires the FCC to collect this information. Congress enacted the DCIA to improve collection of delinquent government debts. As a result of the DCIA, the FCC and other executive agencies collect the SSN from each individual or organization doing business with a federal agency, including applicants for, or recipients of, a federal license or permit.

The current NCVEC Form 605 can be downloaded from the NCVEC web site here. The current form is dated February 2010.

The FCC Form 605, downloadable from the FCC web site here, only asks for your FRN. The form instructions say that this field must be completed and tells the applicant how to apply for an FRN. As stated above, the FRN application process asks for your SSN if you are an individual. The NCVEC Form 605 skips the FRN application step, because they know that most non-hams who walk into a VE session won't have an FRN, by allowing amateur radio applicants through the NCVEC system to enter their SSN.

 

[N0IU]

W9BU sent in his response while I was typing this, but...

The form 605 from the FCC.gov website doesn't have a field for SSN, only the FRN.

Of course they don't have a field for SSN. This is because the FCC's Form 605 is a license application and you can not get an FCC license of any kind without an FRN. As part of the VEC application process, you are actually applying for an FRN at the same time you apply for a license.

Can you get an FRN without getting a license? Sure. You can do this online through the CORES system, but when you apply for one, you still have to give the FCC your SSN.

From the FCC website:

What information do I need to provide to get an FCC Registration Number (FRN)?
•Taxpayer Identification Number (TIN). For individuals this is a Social Security Number and for businesses this is an Employer Identification Number

After you have your license and you need to make an administrative change, apply for a vanity call or when you upgrade at a VE test session, then you are required to give your FRN number.

Collecting your SSN is an FCC requirement, not the VEC system. This is why the NCVEC Form 605 has a field for the applicant's SSN. If you don't want the VEC system to have your SSN, then it is perfectly acceptable to get an FRN beforehand, but the bottom line is that you are going to be giving your SSN to someone.

The ARRL would be wise to reconsider how they handle this.

Also from the FCC website:

The Debt Collection Improvement Act of 1996 (DCIA) sets out to improve collection of delinquent government debts. As a result of the DCIA, the FCC and other executive agencies collect the Taxpayer Identification Number (TIN) from each individual or organization doing business with a federal agency, including applicants for, or recipients of, a federal license or permit.

Its not up to the ARRL or any other VEC that files license applications on your behalf. So if you don't want the VEC system to have your SSN, then this would require a change in the DCIA... and that is not going to happen.

 

[mmckenna]

Its not up to the ARRL or any other VEC that files license applications on your behalf. So if you don't want the VEC system to have your SSN, then this would require a change in the DCIA... and that is not going to happen.

Nope, it just requires applying for your FRN -before- you apply for the license. Yes, the FCC needs the SSN, that's been established.

 

[N0IU]

The ARRL would be wise to reconsider how they handle this.

I'm still not clear on what you want the ARRL to do about it?

 

[ka4gfy]

Many of the people who are taking an amateur exam do not have an FRN when they walk in. So, they must provide the SSN. I make sure our students are aware of this about 4 weeks before the exam, so if any of them want to apply for an FRN, they can use that on the form instead of their SSN.

As an ARRL VE, I can tell you they will not process the application without the FRN or SSN, period.

As for the original question, the person should have received the CSCE before he left the test session. Its the VE team's fault for not trying to track him down to make sure he got it.

ARRL requires their VE teams to send in a report of the test session, which lists the candidates, any amateur licenses they have (callsign), class, what tests they took and most importantly, whether they pass or fail.

73, Rich

 

[mmckenna]

I'm still not clear on what you want the ARRL to do about it?

The ARRL runs some of the VEs, right? The VE's have to collect SSN's -OR- FRN's from the people passing the test.

Did I miss something there? Let me know if I did and I'll recant my statement.

So, the ARRL, along with any of the other VE organizations, could either continue to collect SSN's and FRN's, as was noted above, -OR- they could set things up so applicants could do apply for their FRN's FIRST, thus removing the need for the VE's to collect SSN's.



This is turning into a pointless conversation that has gone way off subject. If you want to continue it, I suggest opening a new topic in the correct area.

 

[ka4gfy]

Going back to the original question, the applicant should go back to the VE team and follow up with them. However, he will most likely end up taking another test. He should bring his FRN with him to the test session this time.

Its been my experience that most people who are taking the amateur tests the first time have absolutely no clue what to bring with them. Without the applicant telling the VE team he already had a GMRS license, they would have made the assumption he did not have an FRN and therefore needed to supply his SSN.

As for collecting FRNs and SSNs, the NCVEC 605 or FCC 605 form is filled out before any testing as the examiners are required to check the paperwork of the people taking tests, such as current amateur licenses, 2 forms of ID, CSCEs, etc.

There does appear to be some sloppy work here on the part of the VE team. They should not have let him out the door without handing him the CSCE. There is a place on the NCVEC form for a telephone number, email and fax number so the applicant can be reached if there is a problem.

Is it possible he misheard the examiners and really didn't pass?

73,
Rich, KA4GFY

 

[AK9R]

So, the ARRL, along with any of the other VE organizations, could either continue to collect SSN's and FRN's, as was noted above, -OR- they could set things up so applicants could do apply for their FRN's FIRST, thus removing the need for the VE's to collect SSN's.

That would require:

• Telling examinees that they have to apply for their FRN before they come to the test session. As stated, many examinees show up at test sessions with little or no knowledge of what they are supposed to bring. Requiring that they get an FRN beforehand would only complicate this.
• Setting up a computer with Internet access at the test session so examinees could apply for their FRN at the test site. This would place additional burden on the examiners to provide these resources.

 

[AK9R]

Folks, the posts from the http://forums.radioreference.com/ge...-operators/272444-license-issue-fcc-arrl.html thread that concerned SSN requirements have been copied or moved here.

 

[mmckenna]

That would require:

• Telling examinees that they have to apply for their FRN before they come to the test session. As stated, many examinees show up at test sessions with little or no knowledge of what they are supposed to bring. Requiring that they get an FRN beforehand would only complicate this.
• Setting up a computer with Internet access at the test session so examinees could apply for their FRN at the test site. This would place additional burden on the examiners to provide these resources.

I guess the core issue I have here is the willingness people have towards handing their SSN out to complete strangers. Suggesting it's OK to do it because it would put a burden on the examiners, or it's just easier, makes me realize why so many people get their identity stolen. It's not that thieves are getting smarter, it appears that it's people not even thinking about what they are doing, and what the risks are. Not surprising at all if you watch the news....

Industry has moved away from using the SSN for anything. Some employers used to use it as an "employee ID number", some people used to put it on their checks, some stores would ask for it as a proof of ID. My employer used to use our SSN as our employee ID up until about 10 years ago and finally stopped due to the risks.

Unless I'm mistaken, the VE's don't have any sort of back ground check. The ARRL and the other VEC's are not government agencies. I'm just surprised that when the rest of the country has moved away from this, amateur radio is still behind the times. The justifications for collecting it, rather than have people apply for their own FRN's, seem weak in this day and age. Saying that "that's the way it's done" as a defense suggests that the average person still doesn't understand the risks.

I'd really think amateur radio would want to lead, rather than follow. But I guess convenience and laziness is a mighty power reason for some people.

 

[N0IU]

So, the ARRL, along with any of the other VE organizations, could either continue to collect SSN's and FRN's, as was noted above, -OR- they could set things up so applicants could do apply for their FRN's FIRST, thus removing the need for the VE's to collect SSN's.

That would require:

• Telling examinees that they have to apply for their FRN before they come to the test session. As stated, many examinees show up at test sessions with little or no knowledge of what they are supposed to bring. Requiring that they get an FRN beforehand would only complicate this.
• Setting up a computer with Internet access at the test session so examinees could apply for their FRN at the test site. This would place additional burden on the examiners to provide these resources.

Then there is Option #3, which actually already exists but could possibly use a little tweaking.

On the back the the NCVEC Form 605, there is a disclaimer (for lack of a better word) that says

SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER
Under the Debt Collection Act of 1996 your Taxpayer ID Number (TIN), which is your Social Security Number, is required on this application -- or your FCC-assigned Federal Registration Number (FRN). An FRN is assigned by the FCC registration system as soon as your SSN is registered.

The NCVEC might want to consider adding verbiage along these lines:

First time applicants may receive their FRN directly from the FCC by registering through the Commission Registration System (CORES). https://apps.fcc.gov/coresWeb/publicHome.do

There. Its just that simple. Problem solved.

I agree that it should not be incumbent upon the VEC system to provide the means of registering applicants who do not want to give their SSN to the VE team. It is never a pleasant task, but we occasionally have to turn away applicants who do not come prepared for one reason or another. If an applicant absolutely refuses to put their SSN on the form, then the only practical and reasonable thing to do is point them to the CORES web site. How they get there is up to them.

EDIT:

The FCC does not want your SSN just for identification purposes. Because of the Debt Collection Improvement Act, the FCC will not grant a license to anyone who owes the government money.

Debt Collection Improvement Act Implementation | FCC.gov

In order to do it your way, all of the VECs would have to require new applicants to get their FRN directly from the FCC and I just don't see that happening.

 

[AK9R]

I'm just surprised that when the rest of the country has moved away from this, amateur radio is still behind the times.

Your replies keep pointing to amateur radio as the problem here. Supplying your SSN is not an amateur radio requirement--it is an FCC requirement if you don't have an FRN. The VECs, and the VEs who administer amateur radio exams under the auspices of the VECs, are complying with an FCC requirement.

As Scott and I have indicated, you don't have to give the VEs your SSN if you don't want to. If that's your choice and you don't have an FRN, the VEs won't be able to give you an examination.

The reality, with which you would be familiar if you were a VE, is that many examinees walk in to amateur radio test sessions with no clue how the testing process works. Expecting an unlicensed examinee to come to the session with an FRN is going to result in turning away a lot of people. Amateur radio is trying to keep the door open by giving unlicensed examinees the option of applying with their SSN.

 

[mmckenna]

Amateur radio is trying to keep the door open by giving unlicensed examinees the option of applying with their SSN.

Yep, that makes perfect sense. I'm not targeting the VE's or the VEC's, only pointing out that with changing times, maybe it's time to change the way it's done. Yes, the FCC requires the SSN, that has been established several times in this thread. There is no argument there.

If people want to hand out their SSN because it's easier than doing a bit of research before the test, that is their choice. Maybe more effort should be made to make this known, maybe no one cares. Like I said before, I'm surprised at how quickly the average person will hand out personal information to complete strangers. That's an observation about the public, not VE's, VEC's, ARRL, LSMFT, EIEIO, etc.....

 

[DaveNF2G]

I still don't get the panic over identity theft from giving your SSN to a VEC. You will, assuming you pass your exams, be broadcasting your FCC-assigned callsign all over the world. From that, people can easily discover all sorts of things about you that are useful for stealing your identity.

 

[N0IU]

...and you don't have an FRN, the VEs won't be able to give you an examination.

Well this may be a little nit-picky, but actually the VEs could give an examination to someone who refuses to completely fill out a Form 605. That person would be issued a CSCE for every element they pass, but the VEs can not file a license application on their behalf. Now the clock is ticking and that person has 365 days in which to acquire an FRN or the CSCE expires.

Assuming they do acquire an FRN within a year, they would still have to go to another testing session so the team could file the application and that team may or may not charge another fee.

And actually this was not uncommon at all back when code tests were required, especially for the General and Extra tests. I did my General at one sitting, but I did my Extra written at one test session then took the code test a couple of weeks later.

If people want to hand out their SSN because it's easier than doing a bit of research before the test, that is their choice.

You are giving examinees for their first amateur radio license waaaaay too much credit!

 

[ka4gfy]

We once had an examinee who refused to put her SSN on the NCVEC 605 form, nor did she obtain the FRN before the exam. We talked about filling out the form the week before exam night in the class. She announced there was NO WAY she would put her SSN on the form. So, we told her how to apply for the FRN and she indicated she would have it next week at the exam.

At the beginning of the exam, she waltzes in and announces we could not send in any of the tests because she didn't have an FRN and its just too bad that everybody will have to wait.

We did the test anyway and I called ARRL the next day. They told me to send in everybody's paperwork (including hers, she passed) and they would deal with her. Yes, she did get a CSCE. Even the failures are sent in. Everybody else got their license within a couple weeks, while it took over a month for hers.

So now, about 4 weeks from test night, we explain about the option of using the FRN instead of the SSN. We bring it up every week until test night. I have not had another student do that to us since then. I have had many who follow through with obtaining an FRN before the test.

But to the person who walks in off the street to take an exam, most don't know about that option, so that's why they must use their SSN, or wait an inordinate about of time for their license to show up.

73,
Rich, KA4GFY

 

[mmckenna]

I still don't get the panic over identity theft from giving your SSN to a VEC. You will, assuming you pass your exams, be broadcasting your FCC-assigned callsign all over the world. From that, people can easily discover all sorts of things about you that are useful for stealing your identity.

I wouldn't refer to it as panic, more morbid curiosity.

My call sign would give someone my name and address, but not much more. Since that info is available at the County Records Office on the property ownership info, etc, I'm not too concerned about that. However, to be safe, I did pull my call sign license plates off the truck. My SSN isn't available on any of the documents, at least not to the general public. Likely, anyone who wanted it bad enough, could get the info they wanted on me. Such is the risk of living in the age of technology. Doesn't mean I should make it easy for anyone.