Need suggestions for DTR programming--DTR 410-DTR700

[Josh380]

So here's the story.

I work for a large company and we just upgraded from the older DTR410 radios to the new DTR700 radios. Nice, but super expensive..that is, for a regular employee. We have multiple shifts that use these radios, and many forget to shut off the radio prior to dropping it in the charger. Needless to say this is killing our batteries and leaving us without radios that last all shift. I've had to swap out radios a few times during my shift in order to have communications throughout my shift, which in my particular position, is key.

So, I'm left with asking management to pass along the word to shut off the radios prior to charging which I've already done and it worked for awhile, but now has failed. Or, I can buy my own radio for use at work.

I'm not going to spend the $350 (at it's cheapest on ebay right now) for the newer DTR700. I'd rather spend closer to the more attractive $89 I've seen the DTR410 go for.

Here's my question, how would I go about setting up a DTR410 to work with the DTR700's at my work? I obviously can't take a radio home to copy the "codeplug", I might be able to get a laptop into work to read a radio, providing the radio reads without a password.

I've been able to pickup the frequency with a digital counter, unfortunately I have no tone or group info.

Ideas? Suggestions? Or am I pretty much stuck trying to read a radio at work?

 

[kruser]

There's no way you picked up the frequency with a frequency counter. At least not on any of the current or recent DTR models.
The DTR radios are digital and employ Frequency Hopping Spread Spectrum (FHSS) which means they use sets (hopsets) of many frequencies that they hop through during use. They stay on a single frequency for just a few milliseconds which is not close to what is needed to even detect the signal with most equipment. They continue hopping through the freqs in the hopset without stopping.
Maybe the old 410s used a single frequency but FHSS is a requirement today for most radios in the 902-928 ISM band.
If this is true, then you may have been able to read the frequency with a counter while transmitting from a 410.

There are a few DTR users here that will be able to answer your question(s) but I think you may need to have access to reading one of the older 410s.
I'm also not certain a 410 is compatible with a 700. Maybe if using a 700 with all defaults but if anything has been changed, my guess would be the 410s won't play with the 700s.

Good luck!

 

[Josh380]

Ok, so I suppose I just picked up one of the many frequencies. I have a Surecom SF-401 counter..it definitely picked up something.

I've read that the DTR700's are compatible with the older DTR radios. I've also read that the DTR410 has an OTA cloning feature. If the DTR700's have this same feature, I might be able to accomplish what I want to do that way...I just need to know how. I've read up on how to do it with the 410, just haven't found anything on the 700. Reading the older 410's isn't possible, as they've all been sent back to IT (offsite of course).

 

[kruser]

You may have read this thread but if not, it could contain some of the info you are after.

Motorola DTR700 Portable Digital Radio 900Mhz

I will have to look into this a bit further. https://www.radiotwoway.com/Motorola_DTR700_New_Portable_Radio

forums.radioreference.com

It's a rather long thread dating back to before the 700 was even available and continues with posts not long ago.

I have some old DLR models and the DTR 650s. They all play well together using the defaults. From what little I read in the thread linked above is it looks like you may be correct in that the 700 should be backwards compatible with the older DTR models. At least using default modes.
If your company setup private groups and what not, that may cause problems for a 410 as the 410 can't do some of the things a 700 can.

It's probably in that thread if you feel like reading it all, it's a pretty lengthy thread!

Good Luck and hope a cheaper 410 will work for you. That sounds like the way to go in your case. Or get management to buy you a new 700 that you and only you have control over so you know it will be charged each day.

It may be a good idea to read one of your 700s into the CPS if you have whatever cable is needed. That may help determine if they are compatible with the 410. If they just popped batteries in them and did not change anything, I think they will talk to a 410 as is.

When I first bought a 650, I did it because there was a group using DTR models here. I had no idea if they setup private groups or not. When I turned on my new 650, the local users were heard using the default group! They never changed a thing and I honestly don't think they know anything about it.
I ended up liking the DTR650 so I bought more 650s and a couple DLRs for the cheaper cost. I've since set them up with a private group but they still have the defaul groups programmed so they can be used with a new DLR or DTR out of the box if needed.

 

[Josh380]

Actually, they had someone program them. Not sure if IT got their hands on them and programmed them prior to sending them to us, or if they just came to us and were programmed by an offsite contractor.

But it seems like maybe the 650 might be a better choice if it plays better with the 700.

 

[n1das]

Actually, they had someone program them. Not sure if IT got their hands on them and programmed them prior to sending them to us, or if they just came to us and were programmed by an offsite contractor.

But it seems like maybe the 650 might be a better choice if it plays better with the 700.

A DTR410 will play with a DTR700 just like a DTR650 will. I have owned a fleet of DLR1060 radios (sold to a friend for his business) and currently own a fleet of DTR650 and a fleet of DTR700 radios. I have had them all working together in public and private groups. I also had the DLRs working with the 700s on Profile ID mode channels, a new feature of the DLRs and the DTR 600/700 models.

I have never owned a 410 but from what I've figured out is the 410 can't do private groups, only public groups and private 1 to 1 calling, IIRC. The DTR550 and 650 models have private groups in addition to pubic groups and private 1 to 1 calling. The DLRs and the DTR 600/700 models added a Profile ID feature which the older DTR 410/550/650 models don't have.

The 410 appears to be a remnant of the older off-network Direct Talk feature in some NEXTEL phones years ago (not to be confused with DirectConnect which used the NEXTEL iDEN network). These radios all use the old MOTOTALK platform but the DTRs and DLRs were coded differently from the DirectTalk feature in some NEXTEL phones to be incompatible, supposedly on purpose. Gotta keep it as simple as possible for phone users. I suspect the phones became incompatible with the DTRs (and DLRs) when more features were added to make the DTR 410/550/650 models. The DTR 410/550/650 models at one time shared a common design with a NEXTEL phone, and were one and the same for a while until they split apart during development to become separate products.

MOTO Talk - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

If the 700 is operating at the factory default settings, the DTR410 will work with the 700 with the 410 at its factory default settings. The 410/550/650, the DLRs, and the 600/700 models will all work with each other out of the box at their factory default settings. Customization of features in each model is where it can become tricky with making them play together. If the 700 is not using private groups or the Profile ID feature in its programming, the 410 can be programmed to work with the 700.

 

[n1das]

There's no way you picked up the frequency with a frequency counter. At least not on any of the current or recent DTR models.
The DTR radios are digital and employ Frequency Hopping Spread Spectrum (FHSS) which means they use sets (hopsets) of many frequencies that they hop through during use. They stay on a single frequency for just a few milliseconds which is not close to what is needed to even detect the signal with most equipment. They continue hopping through the freqs in the hopset without stopping.
Maybe the old 410s used a single frequency but FHSS is a requirement today for most radios in the 902-928 ISM band.
If this is true, then you may have been able to read the frequency with a counter while transmitting from a 410.

There are a few DTR users here that will be able to answer your question(s) but I think you may need to have access to reading one of the older 410s.
I'm also not certain a 410 is compatible with a 700. Maybe if using a 700 with all defaults but if anything has been changed, my guess would be the 410s won't play with the 700s.

Good luck!

What kruser said regarding FHSS. The 410 uses FHSS too. The DTRs (and DLRs) are not monitorable on any consumer grade receiver, i.e, scanner, so don't even bother trying. If you look at the 902-928MHz band with a spectrum analyzer, you can see the DTR's transmission hop all over the entire 902-928MHz band. The only inexpensive and practical way to monitor them is to have one yourself, AND it has to be programmed the same as what you want to listen to.

By FCC rules (FCC 15.247), a FHSS device operating in the 902-928MHz band is allowed to transmit up to 1W (+30dBm) of power and must use a minimum hopset of 50 frequencies. The DTR 410/550/650 models were certified at 890mW (+29.5dBm). There are rules governing time of occupancy and maximum accumulated dwell time on any given frequency in the hopset. The DTRs and the newer DLRs spend no more than 90ms at a time on any given frequency in the hopset, hopping at about 11 hops/second across the entire 902-928MHz band.

The occupied bandwidth (OBW) on a given frequency in the hopset is also wider than what a narrowband receiver can accept. This means you wouldn't be able to monitor it on a scanner even if the FHSS were disabled and transmitting on a single frequency in the hopset. And then you would still need to decode the VSELP digital modulation according to an 8-level modulation scheme.

The individual frequencies in the hopset are spaced 0.5MHz apart and the DTRs (and DLRs) have 10 hopsets available to use. The old DTRs are often advertised as 10-channel radios while a "channel" in the programming refers to a hopset. It has been mentioned that the frequency spacing is 50 kHz but this refers to the spacing between a frequency in a hopset and the equivalent frequency in an adjacent hopset. On a given hopset, the hopping frequencies used are spaced 0.5MHz apart. If you looked at a DTR's signal with a spectrum analyzer and used the peak (max) hold function, you would see the DTR's signal fill out a "comb" of 50 frequencies across the 902-828MHz band.

You should try to "borrow" a 700 long enough to read it with the CPS to see how it is programmed. You will need the CPS cable and a single unit charger (SUC) tray to connect to the radio. If the codeplug has been locked down with a password then you are SOL. Hopefully the 700 is being used right out of the box at the factory default settings.

 

[Josh380]

Hopefully the 700 is being used right out of the box at the factory default settings.

These radios are programmed.

 

[n1das]

Since "programmed" can mean just about anything in terms of a radio's programming, it is possible that it may have some channels still programmed at the factory default settings. In my DTR650 fleet and DTR700 fleet, I purposely kept the default channels in the programming so they can work with other DTRs outside my fleets. I also added some custom channels that only work with my two fleets of DTRs.

Does your company have some old DTR410 radios still in use and are working with the new fleet of DTR700 radios? That would be good to know and if so that would mean that all you would need to do is read a 410 to get the settings needed to work with the DTR700 fleet. I figure that a company with a large number of DTR radios can't switch to a fleet of new DTRs overnight and the new DTRs need to work with the old DTRs for a while.

 

[Josh380]

Ok. Let me re-phrase..there is a specific group name programmed for these radios. In other words, they are most likely not set up with just factory defaults.

The old 410's are no longer on site. Chargers were tossed and radios probably sent to IT for repurposing.

 

[n1das]

Ok. Let me re-phrase..there is a specific group name programmed for these radios. In other words, they are most likely not set up with just factory defaults.

The old 410's are no longer on site. Chargers were tossed and radios probably sent to IT for repurposing.

Crap, OK. Looks like you will need to get your hands on a DTR700 long enough to read the codeplug from it. If the codeplug has been locked down with a password then you are SOL. If a Private group was set up in the 700, then you are SOL with a 410 because the 410 doesn't do private groups. You would also be SOL because programming a private group requires the 11-digit private ID of every radio in the group to be programmed into every radio in the group. That means ALL radios in the group have to get reprogrammed to add a new radio to a private group. If a public group is being used, then you can get a 410 to work with a 700 if you know the settings. If the 700 fleet is using the Profile ID feature on a Profile ID mode channel, then you are SOL with a 410 because the older DTR 410/550/650 doesn't have any Profile ID features. The Profile ID features are new features that started with the DLR series introduced in 2015 and carried forward to the DTR 600/700 series.

Regarding OTA capabilities in the DTR 600/700 models...only the 4-digit radio Profile (0000-9999) can be cloned OTA to other DTR 600/700 radios.

 

[n1das]

You can check if a 4-digit radio Profile has been programmed into the DTR700 radios. You don't need to read a DTR700 codeplug to check this. Navigate in the on-screen menu to the Advanced page and scroll down and select Profile ID to see what 4-digit radio Profile was programmed. The factory default radio Profile ID is 0000 (off). Make note of the 4-digit Profile ID number that you find.

If the 4-digit Profile ID is at the 0000 default, then it should be possible to get a 410 to play with a 700 on public groups. If the Profile ID is a nonzero value, then a 410 won't play with a 700 unless specific public groups were programmed. If the channels in the 700 are programmed as Profile ID mode channels then a DTR 410/550/650 will not play with the 700 at all.

 

[prc117f]

Actually, they had someone program them. Not sure if IT got their hands on them and programmed them prior to sending them to us, or if they just came to us and were programmed by an offsite contractor.

But it seems like maybe the 650 might be a better choice if it plays better with the 700.

if your an employee why are you not assigned a radio? And why would you need to spend your own money and time to clone a radio Why have you not been issued one to begin with?

 

[alcahuete]

if your an employee why are you not assigned a radio? And why would you need to spend your own money and time to clone a radio Why have you not been issued one to begin with?

Did you read the OP's post at all? He says exactly why he wants one.

 

[Josh380]

Unfortunately there aren't enough of these to issue to individual users.

So I got a look at the menu today..profile ID is at 0000. When ptt is activated, "private group call" shows on screen. Same when receiving traffic. So I guess I'm SOL.

 

[RadioGuy7268]

Why not just buy your own personal battery instead of buying a whole radio and bothering with programming? I believe that the standard DTR700 desktop cradle will charge a battery by itself, or the complete radio.

 

[kruser]

Why not just buy your own personal battery instead of buying a whole radio and bothering with programming? I believe that the standard DTR700 desktop cradle will charge a battery by itself, or the complete radio.

Somebody with a good idea!!

 

[Josh380]

Why not just buy your own personal battery instead of buying a whole radio and bothering with programming? I believe that the standard DTR700 desktop cradle will charge a battery by itself, or the complete radio.

I thought of that..and it is a good idea, except in order to keep it charged I'd have to buy a charger.

Moot point anyway now. The company decided to solve the problem another way. Instead of buying more dtr700's (we needed more radios too) and reprogramming them all, they downgraded to cheapy, non-programmable FRS radios, and bought about 60. What a waste of money. If they had only done that in the first place. Of course these are gonna open up a whole new can of worms now..channels accidentally changing..etc. Ugh.

 

[N5XPM]

Perhaps they would like to unload those incompatible DTR 700s?

 

[Josh380]

Perhaps they would like to unload those incompatible DTR 700s?

Idk. I'm sure they'll do something. From what I gather after talking with him, I doubt the big boss cares.