Need to replace radios for my buisness

[13CA350]

I'm a private investigator, and as part of my business I often have to coordinate surveillance with multiple people at the same time.

I currently have 4 Motorola HT750's. Honestly all I know is how to turn them on and talk.

I need at least 3, but maybe 4 new handhelds. Here are my requirements:

-They must be compatible with earpieces
-I have to have a car charger, if it needs to be purchased separately that's fine
-I need a base station to charge all 4 at my office, one that preferably is one unit and only has one AC plug

I also need them to have good range, and the ability to add a radio in the future if one breaks or I hire more people.

Does anyone have recommendations? I heard that I also probably need a business license? I'm based in MA, but I often find myself in New Hampshire, Rhode Island, Connecticut, and sometimes Maine, Vermont, and New York. Basically all of New England.

Cost isn't really a problem, I will be writing them off and I need them to make money in the first place.

Thanks in advice!

 

[mmckenna]

Yes, you need a license. If you don't have one now, chances are you are operating outside the FCC rules.
The question becomes do you use an itinerant frequency or use a coordinated frequency.
A coordinated frequency is one where you work with a frequency coordinator to find a frequency that you can use over your operations area with some reasonable chance that no one is going to be on that frequency in most areas. Trying to cover "all of New England" is likely not going to get you your very own channel to use across that region without running into other "co-channel" users somewhere.

The itinerant channels are probably a better choice. You can license those without using a frequency coordinator (they cost money), but you'll do so with the understanding that those frequencies are shared, and are not your very own private channel.

For what you are doing, an itinerant channel would be appropriate. Better yet, get licensed on a few of them and you can choose one that doesn't have (or has few) active users where ever you are currently working.

Itinerant channels can be found on VHF low band, VHF high band and UHF. VHF High or UHF would be suitable for what you are doing, probably with a nod towards the UHF channels. There are more of them and UHF will penetrate buildings a bit better than VHF.

Itinerant channels still require an FCC license to use. I'd strongly recommend having a radio shop fill out the forms for you. It's not impossible to do on your own, but it's not easy and a mistake will get it kicked back by the FCC, which will take time.

FRS is out if you want any reasonable range.
MURS might be an option, but you'll be sharing channels with driveway alert systems and fast food takeout windows.

Get properly licensed BEFORE buying radios.

Consider all the options before you buy. Shop around, don't automatically jump to any one specific brand of radio.

Also, you might want to consider getting licensed for one of the digital modes. The digital modes usually come with a standard low level encryption, which might be valuable in your line of work.

If you were asking for a radio recommendation, I'd probably suggest taking a very close look at the Kenwood NX-3000 line of radios. They will do analog and DMR or NXDN, depending on how they are programmed. Both DMR and NXDN will have basic encryption included. The radios are small and very durable. You can buy a 6 slot charger for them. You can also get a vehicle charger.
Audio accessories are no problem, lots of choices there.

Important part is to find a good local radio shop that will work with you. They can do the licensing, they can do the programming, and they will support you long term.

 

[TampaTyron]

As a professional radio tech, I agree with all above. TT

 

[popnokick]

What do you define as “good range”? Also I would think that secure, unmonitorable comms would be important to your business. If so look at the Motorola DTR series of radios. No license needed and they operate securely in the 900 mHz band.

 

[belvdr]

VHF High or UHF would be suitable for what you are doing, probably with a nod towards the UHF channels. There are more of them and UHF will penetrate buildings a bit better than VHF.

Speaking of various scenarios, including Wi-Fi and using a ham radio in a building previously, higher frequencies tend to not penetrate walls, buildings, etc as well as low frequencies. So why would this be different?

 

[Citywide173]

The above advice from mmckenna is spot on. If you are in The Boston area, get in touch with All-Comm in Revere, if you're on the South Shore/Cape, Industrial Communications in Kingston. I've been out of the loop for a while on other areas.

 

[Citywide173]

Speaking of various scenarios, including Wi-Fi and using a ham radio in a building previously, higher frequencies tend to not penetrate walls, buildings, etc as well as low frequencies. So why would this be different?

I, and many others, have had just the opposite experience, some even put it in buying guides.

https://www.buytwowayradios.com/blog/2008/09/uhf_or_vhf_which_is_right_for_you.html

 

[belvdr]

I, and many others, have had just the opposite experience, some even put it in buying guides.

https://www.buytwowayradios.com/blog/2008/09/uhf_or_vhf_which_is_right_for_you.html

That's interesting. I know with Wi-Fi specifically, the 5GHz signals simply don't go through obstacles like a 2.4GHz signal can.

 

[nd5y]

When talking about VHF and the lower part of UHF then higher frequencies penetrate buildings better. At microwave frequencies above 1 GHz RF begins to behave more like light and non conductive or partially conductive materials begin to be opaque to RF.

 

[mmckenna]

Speaking of various scenarios, including Wi-Fi and using a ham radio in a building previously, higher frequencies tend to not penetrate walls, buildings, etc as well as low frequencies. So why would this be different?

I run an 800MHz system specifically because it penetrates buildings much better than the VHF system we use. In large reinforced concrete lab buildings, 80 watts on 800MHz outperforms 100 watts on VHF.

WiFi uses much lower powers, and when you get up that high in frequency, the dynamics are different.

 

[krokus]

Why not use something like Zello, and a high data phone plan?

Sent using Tapatalk

 

[belvdr]

When talking about VHF and the lower part of UHF then higher frequencies penetrate buildings better. At microwave frequencies above 1 GHz RF begins to behave more like light and non conductive or partially conductive materials begin to be opaque to RF.

I run an 800MHz system specifically because it penetrates buildings much better than the VHF system we use. In large reinforced concrete lab buildings, 80 watts on 800MHz outperforms 100 watts on VHF.

WiFi uses much lower powers, and when you get up that high in frequency, the dynamics are different.

Thanks for the discussion.

 

[cmjonesinc]

Why not use something like Zello, and a high data phone plan?

Sent using Tapatalk

I second the zello option. Dont have to worry about licensing at all. Much more secure than conventional analog. And anywhere there's cell coverage there's zello coverage. Zello uses hardly any data. A $5 320mb a month at&t sim coupled with one of these would be a pretty easy set up https://network-radios.com/index.php/product/inrico-t192/

 

[mmckenna]

On the Zello track…

Icom was displaying some LTE portable radios at a recent conference. IP501H is a small portable radio, bluetooth, GPS, works on which ever LTE network SIM to stuff in it. https://www.icom.co.jp/world/products/network/roip/ip501h/


For the money, this or the zello app are going to give you the best coverage out of all your options.

 

[cmjonesinc]

Glad to see a big company getting on board with it. It's a technology that definitely has a place even though its not "real radio" as I keep hearing. Even if OP doesn't have cell coverage everywhere he works a few DTR's would fill the gap well without having to get a license. But with cheap cell data I can see more and more people going that way.

 

[12dbsinad]

Zello and LTE radios would work, provided you have coverage, and don't care about some missed or very delayed transmissions. I use Zello all the time, but wouldn't rely on it for critical comms. If you're looking for that in a close range environment, nothing beats a simplex LMR radio. Your message WILL go thru unless you're just simply out of range of each other. If you go to Vermont, NH, and Maine, there are many areas with zero cell service. It's known as the willy wags..

The other thing to take into consideration is the electronic device laws. Fumbling around with a cell phone while driving trying to open up Zello to talk to the car in front of you is illegal in many New England states. 2 Way radios however are exempt..

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Speaking of various scenarios, including Wi-Fi and using a ham radio in a building previously, higher frequencies tend to not penetrate walls, buildings, etc as well as low frequencies. So why would this be different?

Its a pretty complex subject, but here goes my rationale for UHF versus VHF:

1) The VHF band has a much higher noise floor. Everything from high power paging systems, NOAA weather transmitters and computer networks reduces the effective sensitivity of the radio. If operating near or inside office buildings, those nasty noisy network cables will tear things up.

2) VHF portable radios suffer from inefficient antennas. UHF radios can accept a 1/4 wave antenna that works much better.

3) If need be, you can easily license a repeater pair on UHF. Having a portable UHF repeater in a high rise hotel window can easily increase range tenfold. VHF is difficult to license or implement a repeater.

4) As far as 800 MHz, it is going to be difficult for anyone to license 800 MHz frequencies in the northeast US and anywhere outside the rural centers of the country. You need a minimum of 75 radios on a license and the concept of itinerant use does not exist.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Zello and LTE radios would work, provided you have coverage, and don't care about some missed or very delayed transmissions. I use Zello all the time, but wouldn't rely on it for critical comms. If you're looking for that in a close range environment, nothing beats a simplex LMR radio. Your message WILL go thru unless you're just simply out of range of each other. If you go to Vermont, NH, and Maine, there are many areas with zero cell service. It's known as the willy wags..

The other thing to take into consideration is the electronic device laws. Fumbling around with a cell phone while driving trying to open up Zello to talk to the car in front of you is illegal in many New England states. 2 Way radios however are exempt..

The good thing about two way LMR is that communications are instantaneous. Zello and LTE really are not. You don't want a lag in the transmission if you are shouting "He is on the move now!".

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

I'm a private investigator, and as part of my business I often have to coordinate surveillance with multiple people at the same time.

I currently have 4 Motorola HT750's. Honestly all I know is how to turn them on and talk.

I need at least 3, but maybe 4 new handhelds. Here are my requirements:

-They must be compatible with earpieces
-I have to have a car charger, if it needs to be purchased separately that's fine
-I need a base station to charge all 4 at my office, one that preferably is one unit and only has one AC plug

I also need them to have good range, and the ability to add a radio in the future if one breaks or I hire more people.

Does anyone have recommendations? I heard that I also probably need a business license? I'm based in MA, but I often find myself in New Hampshire, Rhode Island, Connecticut, and sometimes Maine, Vermont, and New York. Basically all of New England.

Cost isn't really a problem, I will be writing them off and I need them to make money in the first place.

Thanks in advice!

I am going to go out on a limb because nobody has mentioned it. When you go shopping, some dealers are going to use the D word. - Digital. You will likely be fine with analog FM radios but I will lay out some pros and cons:

1) Project 25 aka P25. You will be told that because you are a PI, that you need P25 just like the cops use. Well frankly the cops DONT NEED P25! It is a costly choice. But if you end up with P25 you will have analog capability as well. I am just telling you to spend wisely.

2) Motortrbo; Motorola dealers will push Mototrbo. It is in a lot of ways similar to P25 but far less expensive and in my opinion a better platform. If you buy the right radio, it will have analog capability as well. Mototrbo is a technology called DMR. The competitor Hytera is a fine manufacturer of Chinese DMR radios. Motorola is suing them, because perhaps they are too good and maybe some industrial espionage took place or maybe Motorola could not hang onto three top engineers. Avoid "Cheap Chinese Radios" like the plague.

3) Analog vs Digital coverage. Analog FM now uses a narrow 12.5 KHz channel due to an FCC mandate a few years back. There is a 6 dB penalty caused by that reduction in bandwidth. If you go digital, in theory you recover that loss plus a few dB better coverage, So digital can talk a bit farther than analog.

4) Analog vs Digital audio quality. Apart from reduced coverage analog FM is more natural sounding and the voice is instantaneous. Digital audio quality is highly compressed and can sound great or sound terrible depending on the voice of the speaker. Personally, I am a bit of a luddite when it comes to audio. Talking with folks on their crummy smartphones turns me off. I would prefer a landline of the 1980's vintage. Digital in the form of P25 or DMR will have a slight lag, perhaps 80 milliseconds in simplex mode. This is still better than LTE and Zello IP packet audio frames that suffer long network delay, packet loss and jitter. Digital does provide the option for encryption. DMR radios can do this cheaply and effectively. The number of bits of protection will be what affects cost. If you are moving around quite a bit, the lowest 40 bit encryption will do fine.

5) DMR advantage. You can rent service on private commercial DMR systems should you need longer range and long term repeater coverage. Mototrbo has an advantage here in the numbers of commercial providers with capacity plus networks.

6) Other thoughts. You might be able to rent radios that you are considering to buy in order to evaluate the audio quality, the coverage etc.



Finally, why do you now have to replace the HT750's? Were there any particular problems with them other than age?

 

[cmjonesinc]

They also make LTE UHF radios. Never used one and can't speak for them but I know they have 2 PTT buttons. One for Zello and one for whatever UHF frequencies you program. As for using the Zello app on a cell phone to serve OP's purpose I definitely wouldn't reccomend that. As already stated cell phone laws in some states would be an issue. On top of that the PTT button would be a nuisance if you didn't have a phone with a programmable side key. And then the fact you would have to buy several phones and pay for a large data plan monthly because inevitably people would be using them from more than just zello. Network radios for a couple hundred each would take a monthly data plan of 5 to 7 bucks and are a purpose built radio. If you were to be in an area without cell coverage a few radios could supplement that but naturally you'll be dealing with short range simplex comms. I find using a network radio with a zello crosslink back to an RF repeater has much better coverage than my 4 watt uhf portable in most areas I am in.