New CA Air to Ground frequencies for 2012

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zerg901

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exsmokey - thanks alot for all the great info. I will have to read it over a few times, and let it all sink in.

My only follow up question at this point is - When working on the sides of mountains, using portable radios, is it sometimes possible to talk to someone 20 miles away, but not be able to reach someone 1000 feet away who is on the other side of a ridge? (this points towards the fact that tac nets use simplex, but Forest and Fire nets usually have repeaters)
 

K6CDO

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My only follow up question at this point is - When working on the sides of mountains, using portable radios, is it sometimes possible to talk to someone 20 miles away, but not be able to reach someone 1000 feet away who is on the other side of a ridge? (this points towards the fact that tac nets use simplex, but Forest and Fire nets usually have repeaters)

Peter - Often, and at distances greater than 50 miles.

Don
 

SCPD

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Additional on the flight following frequency. Automatic flight following, once established, has reduced use of this frequency. Local flight following is usually conducted on forest, district or park nets. Sometimes it is moved over the flight following is the primary net is busy with other traffic, fire or non fire. Some dispatch centers outside California have been allocated a local flight following frequency to remove it from their primary net as a lot of traffic can be involved, which ties up the primary net, which needs to be reserved for dispatches, command and use by other functions.

On large incidents flight following is done by the incident management or air attack supervisor. On initial attacks the air attack supervisor usually advises dispatch when air tankers leave a forest to reload and return or stay on a forest that has a retardant reload base or air tanker base.

I made an error above in the fifth sentence. It should read: Sometimes it is moved to national flight following when the primary net is busy with other traffic, fire or non fire. This is often the case when the air traffic is of the non-emergency type, such as fire air patrol (normally conducted during periods of lightning storms), law enforcement patrols, wildlife population recon and timber damage assessments (insect, wind etc.). This practice for local flight following varies depending on the situation and how heavy the traffic is on a unit's primary net.

The flight following frequency was originally used for non-local flight following to reduce the use of local forest and BLM district nets. While flying you have normal aviation traffic to keep up with, mostly CTAF's and air traffic controls on AM that change as an aircraft progresses. Before the use of national flight following aircraft had to figure out what forest net to use, often involving deciding what repeater to use relative to what portion of a forest the aircraft was flying over. To simplify things the national flight following net was established allowing the aircraft to stay on one frequency. This and automatic flight following is used when an aircraft is traveling from a home unit and crossing several other jurisdictions to reach the final destination.

As a side note, flying a small helicopter across several states becomes pretty involved as the helitack truck and the helicopter tender have to follow along at a much slower pace. Air tankers, lead planes and air attack aircraft don't have ground units attached so it is much easier for them to fly long distances.
 

SCPD

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Peter - Often, and at distances greater than 50 miles.

Don

Tac nets are usually assigned for each division. The criteria for establishing a division include: one, a size that allows the division supervisor to walk the perimeter in one day and two, being able to communicate on a simplex frequency with all the units on the division. Sometimes, due to the size of a fire and the availability of command resources, these objectives can't be met. In most cases, when additional resources arrive those objectives are then met.

During the Yellowstone fires of 1988, in spite of the 9600 firefighting personnel present, there weren't enough resources to staff divisions so everyone was starting to work at levels above their qualifications and divisions were too big to meet objectives explained above. This resulted in division supervisors handling some of the tasks of branch directors, strike team leaders performing as "sub division supervisors," and crew bosses making decisions normally made by strike team leaders. For example, my crew and I were sent inside the fire line to make it more fire resistant (covering it with old fire shelters and adjacent trees and fuel). The wind, smell of the smoke and my instincts told me the situation was tenuous and when fire behavior began to change I made a unilateral decision to pull out my crew out. I could not contact my strike team leader to pass along my observations or my decisions because I could reach anyone on tac net due to topography and distance. The division supervisor sent a Type I helicopter, brought in to make bucket drops on spot fires, to relay his direction to pull out and what route to travel with our bus, once we made the 2 mile trek back to it. I had already made these decisions without him due to the wind making a 180 degree shift and not being able to raise anyone on tac net. I did this not knowing the behavior and location of the fire in other portions of the division. I had already sized up my area and knew where my safety zone was going to be if I needed it, but I could not give the bus driver, who was sitting in the bus, any direction because we didn't have enough radios to provide bus drivers with them. By the way we lost the division and had a "little" slopover fire of 27,000 acres that afternoon, but when the size of the fire exceeding 400,000 acres at the time, this was just a little fire across the line!

The size of divisions, difficulties with tac net and stretching the qualifications of supervisory personnel was known and discussed at briefings, but resource utilization on the national level had exhausted the supply of them. The 1988 northern Rockies fire situation was very unusual and this is the only time I encountered this type of situation. I don't think any injuries resulted due to this situation as everyone really stepped up to the plate and handled it. However, at times fire behavior was such that it was sufficient to make some young men a little incontinent!

I hope this provides some insight on how tac nets are affected by topography and the design of the command structure.

***EDIT*** I don't think the Yellowstone situation would be allowed currently. The protocol of LCES (lookouts, communications, escape routes and safety zones) that requires documentation prior to deployment governs now. In my Yellowstone situation a person relaying traffic for us should have been provided at a location where someone could act as a human repeater and lookout. I don't recall if a safety zone and escape route had been discussed that day but it was pretty clear to me what those would be when I arrived, even though the escape route for the bus was real sketchy .
 
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SCPD

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exsmokey - I guess we forgot to add "crew nets" to the big comms picture - http://forums.radioreference.com/ar...re-gladiator-fire-crown-king.html#post1758962

The designation of 168.2000 as crew net was dropped some years back, but people tend to still call it that. The frequencies I provided in the link you provided can be called crew nets. They are not tactical frequencies as they are designated for intracrew communications of crew coordination and logistical needs.
 

PJaxx

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Region 5 has use of 170.000 '''only''' until June 30, 2012.
Beginning July 1, 2012 the new Region 5 A/G frequencies will be

For SRF/Fortuna, KNF/Yreka, SHF/Redding, MDF/Modoc, LNF/Susanville
Primary: R5 AG-1 167.6000
Secondary: R5 AG-2 166.8750

For PNF/Plumas, TNF/Grass Valley, MNF/Mendocino, ENF/Camino, TMU/Camino
Primary: R5 AG-3 167.5000
Secondary: R5 AG-4 169.1125

For STF/Stanislaus, SNF/Sierra, INF/Inyo, SQF/Porterville, LPF/Los Padres
Primary: R5 AG-5 167.4750
Secondary: R5 AG-6 168.6375

For ANF/Angeles, CNF/Monte Vista, BDF/San Bernardino
Primary: R5 AG-4 169.1125
Secondary: R5 AG-7 168.4875
 

fireinoc

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I received good word last week from Region Fire and Aviation folks about air-ground frequencies:

1. 170.000 has been extended to June 30 to accommodate reprogramming in CA. After that time it will only be available for limited assignment nationally as an incident assigned frequency. It will go away completely within a couple years.

2. After June 30, the new frequencies will be the only frequencies in use in CA for all federal agencies (the wiki frequencies shown for the Park Service units are in error).

3. The primary frequencies in each zone are preassigned and may be used by local units when needed. The secondary frequencies on the list are assigned for zone use but must be requested from the GACC.

4. CALFIRE will continue to use CDF A/G 151.220 as their primary. They also have two additional backup frequencies which are already found in wiki.

5. The old BLM A/G 167.950 went away a couple years ago and is no longer available for BLM use.

6. Air Guard is still in use nationally for hailing and emergencies. 168.625
 

fireinoc

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In my last post I should have said that the new frequencies will be the only federal frequencies for INITIAL ATTACK air to ground. There will continue to be A/G frequencies assigned by NIFC for major incident use
 

E5911

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the Nevada link is broken or been pulled as of 6-19-12
anyone have it?

also to throw intro the mix- BLM used to use "SOA" scene of action as a tactical designation
Here in AZ it is still used however the name for channel has now changed to "tac"
 

SCPD

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I received good word last week from Region Fire and Aviation folks about air-ground frequencies:

1. 170.000 has been extended to June 30 to accommodate reprogramming in CA. After that time it will only be available for limited assignment nationally as an incident assigned frequency. It will go away completely within a couple years.

2. After June 30, the new frequencies will be the only frequencies in use in CA for all federal agencies (the wiki frequencies shown for the Park Service units are in error).

3. The primary frequencies in each zone are preassigned and may be used by local units when needed. The secondary frequencies on the list are assigned for zone use but must be requested from the GACC.

4. CALFIRE will continue to use CDF A/G 151.220 as their primary. They also have two additional backup frequencies which are already found in wiki.

5. The old BLM A/G 167.950 went away a couple years ago and is no longer available for BLM use.

6. Air Guard is still in use nationally for hailing and emergencies. 168.625

I will be getting the R5 official information in the next two weeks or less. Sequoia-Kings and Yosemite have a large medical and search and rescue workload due to high visitation and the exclusive federal jurisdictions they have. They have had separate air to grounds in the past because of this. I'm thinking that the information you received applies to fire suppression only and the reason would be to have uniformity on fires to lessen mix ups. It is possible that other activities such as SAR and medical can still continue using other frequencies.
 

gvranchosbill

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BLM Local Flight Following 167.9500 mhz 114.8 hz

As of 1 week ago BLM Minden Dispatch (Sierra Front) is and has been using [167.9500/114.8] simplex and talking to Fire fighting aircraft.

Example: "Tanker 80, Minden on BLM Flight Following" also refered to as "BLM Local Flight"
I have heard Minden Dispatch calling Aircraft on "National Flight Following" [168.6500/110.9] just as long ago.
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Air to Ground & Air to Air Freqs a couple of weeks to a year old:
Used on NV Fires (Near Calif Border) this is what i have heard and logged:
A/G#04 Primary 166.6875
A/G#08 Secndry166.8750 (Also noticed A/G#02 In Calif)
A/G#27 ............168.4275 (Isnt this 7.5hz bandwidth?)
A/G#51 ............168.3125
A/G#?? ............ 166.3125
A/A#?? .............166.9625
A/G#?? Helibase163.1000 (Temp Helicopter Base)
A/A#?? Tankers 118.5750 (Tanker Air-Ops VFR)
A/A#?? Tankers 120.8750 (Tankers,Helos Approach/Departure Air-Attack is Air Traffic control)
A/A#?? Tankers 120.9750 (Same as 120.8750 Above)
A/G#?? Tankers 122.9250 (Temp Base Reload/Minden-Tahoe Airport)
A/A#?? AirAttck 122.9750 (Talk-Around/Weather,Instructions,Info etc)
A/A#?? Helos....123.1750 (Helicopter Air-Ops VFR)
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Question for EX SMOKEY.
Im hearing weak signal on[169.1500/136.5] as far as i been able to find out it might be Stanislaus NF.
Have you heard this also or know of?
Is this correct agency?
Is tone correct for output?
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Im just gearing up for 2012 fire season and have logged some new freqs used by "Hand Crews" also i noticed that Air to Ground channels have number assignments too, i will post what i have so far this year in a little while after i note them from my ever increasing Federal Frequency List.
That is 162 mhz to174 mhz portion.
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FYI:
138 mhz to 144 mhz & 148 mhz to 150.7000 mhz i have found a few new users (Military).
406 mhz to 420 mhzis mostly dead here so far.
DEA have not heard a peep in almost a year,although the repeaters they used are still up.

gvranchosbill
 
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nd5y

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