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new repeater purchase. Help needed.

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Logan005

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I have been saving for about a year to purchase a new HAM repeater, I am having a hard time deciding between the FR6000 and the RD982U-1, "I keep telling myself this is only a Hobby" either way I got some cash for the holidays and am now in the position to take the plunge. I have been playing with a PD782 for the past few days to see how I like it. I think I would prefer the x1p but I cant have both at once, but could be a future upgrade maybe my birthday or something. so far I have not seen an I-com handheld I like, however I have seen a Motorola MotoTRBO SL 7550 digital hand set I think is attractive. I do not know much more than that. If I based my repeater purchase on the digital handset/HT I like, I may make the wrong choice. I somewhat understand DMR vs. TRBO vs P25, but if there is some interoperability, is it that important. I run a repeater, got a pair. 55' tower, 70' of LMR600 and a Phelps Dodge duplexer. The added features I desire are call groups, direct calling, CWID and voice time announcement as well as the future ability to tie in a NOAA radio for local alerts. I am aware both repeater choices include a accessory port as well as an Ethernet connection. I do not necessarily need digital, but I like the idea of it and some of the best analog features seem to be on the digital repeaters as standard. Are there other repeater options in this price range ($1500) I am missing? I want to do this correctly, but I need help and input. If I have a PD782 can I talk on TRBO or D-link? not that I will, but would I be able to? or if I got an SL 7550 would I be able to use it on a RD982U-1 or FR6000 repeater? Again I am in over my head here, so I need some good advice to make the best decision for my particular situation.

Thanks in advance and 73
 

kb1isz

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FR6000 is NXDN/IDAS where the RD982 is DMR. They are not compatible digital standards. You could use them interoperable in analog though.

The SL7550 is a DMR only radio(No analog) so you couldn't use it with the FR6000. I didn't like the SL7550 since my thumb seemed to keep slipping off the PTT.

Motorola does make a DMR repeater as well(XPR8300/XPR8400/MTR3000). When I looked at the two I decided to go with the Hytera. I would suggest you look at both of them and see what one is best for you.

No matter what repeater you get (Motorola/Hytera/ICOM) you can get linked up to an amateur HAM network.

If you decide to get a Hytera let me know and I can get you the info needed to link in. Check out the list of online repeaters DMR Dashboard
Thanks,
Will
KB1ISZ
 

Logan005

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Thank You Will. I am coming to the decision that Hytera offers a lot more for the money. I will likely use in analog only mode until I get more digital instruments. I am curious how to connect a NOAA radio to the D-sub connector and will I still need a device to PTT? also is talking clock an included feature of the Hytera or is an accessory needed? I will check out the above link and see what I can find? is there a RD982U-1 forum?
 

kb1isz

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I am unaware of any of the repeaters having a talking clock.

There is an accessory port on the back of the RD982 and I know others have hooked up an external controller for weather alerts and clocks.

If you want to hook an existing NOAA radio to the repeater directly it could probably be done but I am not sure how.

You can run the repeater in mixed mode if you like so that analog users and Digital users can get the benefit. The Hytera network website is Hytera MotoTRBO » World Wide Linking Project
Thanks,
Will
KB1ISZ
 

Logan005

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Thanks again, will. I have decided on the Hytera, just have to wait till Monday to get it shipped out. I was able to get it for the same price as the I-com digital repeater. so that price point made it an easy decision.
 

JRayfield

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Keep in mind that the Hytera repeaters can not be networked into the DMR-MARC network or any other DMR network that uses Motorola MOTOTRBO repeaters. And the c-Bridge (which can be used to expand MOTOTRBO into networked systems with hundreds of repeaters) does not support the Hytera DMR repeaters.

John Rayfield, Jr. CETma
W0PM

Thanks again, will. I have decided on the Hytera, just have to wait till Monday to get it shipped out. I was able to get it for the same price as the I-com digital repeater. so that price point made it an easy decision.
 

DisasterGuy

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It can be linked by IP using DMR standards. MotoTRBO does not follow Tier II or III standards, hence the reason it would not link.


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JRayfield

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Not correct. The ETSI DMR standard does not include any IP linking for conventional repeaters (Tier 2). Therefore, both companies developed their own 'proprietary' method of linking conventional repeaters. Tier 3 is trunking, and it does include IP linking as part of the standard.

Conventional MOTOTRBO definitely follows Tier 2. It also includes some additional 'non-standard' items, such as the method's used for encryption and IP Site Connect, just like Hytera does with their product line.

John Rayfield, Jr. CETma
W0PM

It can be linked by IP using DMR standards. MotoTRBO does not follow Tier II or III standards, hence the reason it would not link.


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kb1isz

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Keep in mind that the Hytera repeaters can not be networked into the DMR-MARC network or any other DMR network that uses Motorola MOTOTRBO repeaters. And the c-Bridge (which can be used to expand MOTOTRBO into networked systems with hundreds of repeaters) does not support the Hytera DMR repeaters.

John Rayfield, Jr. CETma
W0PM
John is 100% correct. DMR-MARC will not allow any Hytera repeater on their network.

It's not all bad news though! There are ~40 Hytera repeaters linked worldwide right now(DMR Dashboard).

Also while the c-bridge doesn't support Hytera there is both linux and windows software that is written by HAM's and provided free for linking into the Hytera system.

Another interesting thing is that when you link into the Hytera system you still have full control of your repeater via RDAC because we send you all setting's needed to connect. If I recall when you link into DMR-MARC they program your repeater and you can no longer connect via RDAC.

Thanks,
Will
KB1ISZ
 

DisasterGuy

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I was under the impression that Hytera and others implemented the connectivity protocol specified in Tier III within their Tier II products.


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JRayfield

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That's the first time that I've heard this. So, I can't say that it's not, but I'm surprised that I wouldn't have heard this sooner. Now you've gone and set things up so that I'm going to have to dig for more information to find out for sure. :)

There's been quite a bit of mis-information on the internet about both Hytera's DMR products and MOTOTRBO products, such that it can be a challenge to keep it all straight. For example, what Hytera calls "Pseudo Trunking" appears to be the same as "Capacity Plus" running on one repeater (two time slots, trunked), or very similar. Yet, I've seen more than one reference on the internet that stated that "Pseudo Trunking" is unique to Hytera's DMR products and that Hytera invented it. If "Capacity Plus" is basically the same thing, then "Pseudo Trunking" is not unique and Hytera did not invent it, since Capacity Plus was out on the market before "Pseudo Trunking" was out on the market.

Always something new to learn about with this new digital technology (even just within the "DMR world").

I love it. :) It makes me feel like I'm 18 years old again and just getting started in the Land Mobile Radio business.

John Rayfield, Jr. CETma
W0PM

I was under the impression that Hytera and others implemented the connectivity protocol specified in Tier III within their Tier II products.


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JRayfield

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It's not that the DMR-MARC group won't "allow" Hytera repeaters on the network, it's that they won't work on the network, because of the different IP connection protocols used by the two companies (Hytera and Motorola Solutions). This is also exactly what you may have meant to say. Sorry if I misunderstood.

I wasn't aware of any "third-party" software that would support the Hytera IP connection protocol. I'll have to look into that. More to learn about! :)

I've never heard anything about the DMR-MARC group insisting on programming (or even setting up the programming) for repeaters that are used on their network. In fact, there are many repeaters that are not directly connected to the DMR-MARC network, but are on other networks, that are then bridged into the DMR-MARC network. That's how the number of repeaters, overall, has reached to around 200 or so now. It's one very large network made up of many smaller networks.

As to connecting into a repeater on the DMR-MARC network with RDAC, in some cases, that can cause network problems if too many were to do that at the same time, since each computer running RDAC looks like a repeater to the rest of the network. Adding too many repeaters (including RDAC) to one 'segment' of an IPSC network will eventually result in problems due to either not enough IP bandwidth at some repeater sites or too many repeaters on the 'segment'. But, other than that, no one has a problem with me using RDAC on my repeater. I just have to be careful that I don't do something that might have a negative impact on the network that would affect others. Actually, as we speak, the DMR-MARC network, and other networks that are connected to it, are being 're-designed', thanks to some very recent changes in the c-Bridge controllers, such that connecting more 'instances' of RDAC into repeaters on the DMR-MARC network will have less impact, as compared to before.

By the way, I'm really enjoying this discussion. I'm learning from it, and I think I'll be able to share some 'new information' with others (I hope so, anyway). And while I was thinking that we're getting a bit off-topic here, maybe not, since this kind of information is good for someone to know about, who is looking at purchasing a repeater for DMR for ham use.

John Rayfield, Jr.
W0PM

John is 100% correct. DMR-MARC will not allow any Hytera repeater on their network.

It's not all bad news though! There are ~40 Hytera repeaters linked worldwide right now(DMR Dashboard).

Also while the c-bridge doesn't support Hytera there is both linux and windows software that is written by HAM's and provided free for linking into the Hytera system.

Another interesting thing is that when you link into the Hytera system you still have full control of your repeater via RDAC because we send you all setting's needed to connect. If I recall when you link into DMR-MARC they program your repeater and you can no longer connect via RDAC.

Thanks,
Will
KB1ISZ
 
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JRayfield

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May have found the answer to "Does IP connectivity between Hytera repeaters use the Tier 3 'site networking' protocol?".

This is from a Hytera document, dated May 31, 2011. Of course, it may have changed since then, but I haven't heard of any such changes.

"In IP Multi-site Connect mode, DMR protocol is transported by TCP/IP protocol and a
Hytera-owned protocol at Application Layer. Accordingly, it is reasonable to conclude that
this mode only changes the DMR transmission media without affecting the services of
DMR terminals."

"Hytera-owned protocol" would indicate that it is not the same protocol used in the DMR Tier 3 standard, but is proprietary to Hytera.

But, I'm still investigating. :)

John Rayfield, Jr.
W0PM
 

kb1isz

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Perhaps it was a sub group that had that policy. Like you said it is a bunch of different groups and I am only going by what I was told so I could be mistaken.

As for linking Hytera with the DMR-MARC I was correct in how I worded it. I had emailed them because I had been told there was software that would allow a Motorola and Hytera system to link(Newfields PROHAM). They were very clear Hytera was not welcome. It turned out the software didn't exist anyways. But they made their intentions clear. I even asked if one of their affiliates could link with a Hytera system and they said no. If you are linked to DMR-MARC you cannot link to a Hytera repeater.
Thanks,
Will
KB1ISZ

EDIT:
Take a look at http://wiki.oevsv.at/index.php?title=OPEN-HYTERA-WIN-MASTER it is in German but google translate does a good job. He has a whole DMR category with info on what the software does as well as plans/thoughts.
 
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JRayfield

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Ok. I understand.

There's been concern about anything connecting into the DMR-MARC network that might 'break' it. That even applies to new firmware updates from Motorola for the repeaters. There have been cases where new firmware in a repeater, or new c-Bridge software, caused an unforseen problem in part of the network. That also has happened with SmartPTT. So, it's very likely that there was concern about any software that would be used to connect a Hytera repeater into the DMR-MARC network, at least for a while until it could 'prove itself' (tested on another network, not connected into DMR-MARC). Also, "transmit interrupt" is being used on the DMR-MARC network (and networks connected to it), and while that poses no problems for 'subscribers' (and there are guys using Hytera radios on the DMR-MARC network and no one has any problem with that at all), I'm not sure what a Hytera repeater would do, connected to an IPSC network using software not developed by a MOTOTRBO licensed developer. Basically, without some very serious testing, I could foresee some possible serious problems between a Hytera repeater and Motorola's IPSC, if the software interface wasn't designed 'just right'. And to do that, the developer would have to have access to the IPSC documentation from Motorola. So I suspect that the "no Hytera repeaters" 'rule' was more from a technical standpoint than from any other standpoint. I may be wrong, and I'm kind of guessing on this, but it's an 'educated guess'.

Thanks for the link. I searched Google for something, but couldn't find anything. I'll definitely take a look at this.

John Rayfield, Jr.
W0PM

Perhaps it was a sub group that had that policy. Like you said it is a bunch of different groups and I am only going by what I was told so I could be mistaken.

As for linking Hytera with the DMR-MARC I was correct in how I worded it. I had emailed them because I had been told there was software that would allow a Motorola and Hytera system to link(Newfields PROHAM). They were very clear Hytera was not welcome. It turned out the software didn't exist anyways. But they made their intentions clear. I even asked if one of their affiliates could link with a Hytera system and they said no. If you are linked to DMR-MARC you cannot link to a Hytera repeater.
Thanks,
Will
KB1ISZ

EDIT:
Take a look at OPEN-HYTERA-WIN-MASTER it is in German but google translate does a good job. He has a whole DMR category with info on what the software does as well as plans/thoughts.
 

DisasterGuy

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Just read the same a bit ago myself trying to follow up on it. It is a shame that there isn't a common RF Sub System and console subsystem standard like there is with P25. I am currently working a project to connect a Capacity Plus system to a P25 based interop system and sadly there just isn't any way to do it end-to-end IP without going through an analog interface. It sounds like the same is true with DMR.

May have found the answer to "Does IP connectivity between Hytera repeaters use the Tier 3 'site networking' protocol?".

This is from a Hytera document, dated May 31, 2011. Of course, it may have changed since then, but I haven't heard of any such changes.

"In IP Multi-site Connect mode, DMR protocol is transported by TCP/IP protocol and a
Hytera-owned protocol at Application Layer. Accordingly, it is reasonable to conclude that
this mode only changes the DMR transmission media without affecting the services of
DMR terminals."

"Hytera-owned protocol" would indicate that it is not the same protocol used in the DMR Tier 3 standard, but is proprietary to Hytera.

But, I'm still investigating. :)

John Rayfield, Jr.
W0PM
 

N8OHU

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Just read the same a bit ago myself trying to follow up on it. It is a shame that there isn't a common RF Sub System and console subsystem standard like there is with P25. I am currently working a project to connect a Capacity Plus system to a P25 based interop system and sadly there just isn't any way to do it end-to-end IP without going through an analog interface. It sounds like the same is true with DMR.
It's my understanding that ETSI is working on a open IPSC standard for DMR, since most manufacturers have used the extensions to create deliberate incompatibilities between vendors hardware at that level.



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DisasterGuy

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It's my understanding that ETSI is working on a open IPSC standard for DMR, since most manufacturers have used the extensions to create deliberate incompatibilities between vendors hardware at that level.
Since P25 already has the ISSI defined, it would be nice to see ETSI at least adopt the ISSI standard for DMR and TETRA to allow at least IP based Inter-SubSystem operation in addition to a DMR DFSI.
 
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