NFPA 1802 question

[12dbsinad]

I'm assuming the new radio's meeting this new standard is going to require some sort of testing, certification, service life? etc. just like everything else designed for IDLH environment. Does anyone have any insight on this? I've found no info on this after some research.

 

[mmckenna]

I haven't seen anything either. I'm sure Harris and Motorola will have a list of requirements like the IS stuff.

From what I can find on Motorolas 1802 site:

Q Is the NFPA 1802 certification a one-time process?
A No. Manufacturers need to have their NFPA 1802 compliant products recertified by the certification organization on an annual basis. Manufacturers may also be audited twice per year to ensure RF devices and RSMs continue to be manufactured to a quality in accordance with the standard. Customers who purchase NFPA 1802 certified RF devices and RSMs will not need to be audited or renew certification.

 

[kf8yk]

In 1802 section 5.2.3 states the manufacturer is responsible to inform the end users of the recommended periodic inspection and maintenance intervals. There's nothing indicating that a device will lose certification if the end user fails to follow the manufacturer's recommendations.

 

[mmckenna]

Not to sound too sarcastic...
But that's surprising. So much of the NFPA is about making money for the manufacturers. I'd be surprised if they put all this effort into getting these high dollar radios on the market without a plan to keep the money rolling in.
Actually, based on the requirements, it seems like periodic inspection -should- be required.
I can believe they passed up that opportunity.

 

[12dbsinad]

Not to sound too sarcastic...
But that's surprising. So much of the NFPA is about making money for the manufacturers. I'd be surprised if they put all this effort into getting these high dollar radios on the market without a plan to keep the money rolling in.
Actually, based on the requirements, it seems like periodic inspection -should- be required.
I can believe they passed up that opportunity.

100% agree. Makes no sense because if the radio meets such tight standards like survive a nuclear bomb it should be just as important as your bunker gear, SCBA or hoseline. I bet that changes at some point.

 

[mmckenna]

I bet that changes at some point.

If it was up to me, I'd write something in that required all public safety radios to get busy with Mr. Service Monitor every 365 days without exception. At least that would be actually beneficial.

I still think taking a single band basic 1 or 2 channel fireground radio and building it into the SCBA would make a crapload more sense than this all band P25, $10,000 radio B.S.

 

[Outerdog]

In 1802 section 5.2.3 states the manufacturer is responsible to inform the end users of the recommended periodic inspection and maintenance intervals. There's nothing indicating that a device will lose certification if the end user fails to follow the manufacturer's recommendations.

The end users are the dudes carrying the radios. 1802 5.2.3 outlines what the system administrators are required to communicate to their end users. 5.2.1 requires the manufacture to provide that information with the product. Chapter 5 is all about Product Labeling and Information and has nothing to do with certification or the like. 5.2 tells us what the users are supposed to know about the product.



If you want to know about certification and how to go about losing it, see Chapter 4.

 

[kf8yk]

Chapter 4 only pertains to manufacturers, not the purchasers/end users. Section 1.3.3 is clear that the scope of NFPA 1802 is limited to new equipment only.

1802 is getting consolidated into a new standard called "NFPA 1930 Standard on Fire and Emergency Service Use of Thermal Imagers, Two-Way Portable RF Voice Communication Devices, Ground Ladders, and Fire Hose, and Fire Hose Appliances". There's a chance this new standard will address in service re-certification.

 

[Outerdog]

We agree.

 

[FireHam32]

If it was up to me, I'd write something in that required all public safety radios to get busy with Mr. Service Monitor every 365 days without exception. At least that would be actually beneficial.

I still think taking a single band basic 1 or 2 channel fireground radio and building it into the SCBA would make a crapload more sense than this all band P25, $10,000 radio B.S.

Unfortunately, instead of building the simple fireground radio into the SCBA, Scott decided to add a Bluetooth radio to connect the mask to the $10,000 all band P25 radio. Because Bluetooth links are obviously well known for being super reliable and never requiring user intervention…..

 

[mmckenna]

Unfortunately, instead of building the simple fireground radio into the SCBA, Scott decided to add a Bluetooth radio to connect the mask to the $10,000 all band P25 radio. Because Bluetooth links are obviously well known for being super reliable and never requiring user intervention…..

Yep. I dislike Bluetooth anything.

And a 2 channel Motorola HT-1000 stripped down and built into the SCBA would be really easy to do. But we all know there's not enough profit to make that a reality.

I just ordered a bunch of Harris XL-200p's. Glad I don't support fire any more, there's no way I could force myself to order XL-400's. I gotta draw the line somewheres…...

 

[buddrousa]

100% agree. Makes no sense because if the radio meets such tight standards like survive a nuclear bomb it should be just as important as your bunker gear, SCBA or hoseline. I bet that changes at some point.

My PPE is replaced every 10 years does not matter if it sees 10 fires or 10,000 fires.
Coat
Bunker pants
Helmet
Gloves
Boots
Nomex Hood
Next thing you know the radio will be 10 and gone.

 

[BMDaug]

Yep. I dislike Bluetooth anything.

And a 2 channel Motorola HT-1000 stripped down and built into the SCBA would be really easy to do. But we all know there's not enough profit to make that a reality.

I just ordered a bunch of Harris XL-200p's. Glad I don't support fire any more, there's no way I could force myself to order XL-400's. I gotta draw the line somewheres…...

I’m not arguing with you about Bluetooth, so don’t interpret what I’m about to say in that way… I’ve had a terrible time with wireless keyboards, mice, audio in cars, and just about every other consumer device that exists. However, my OTTO Bluetooth speaker mic connected to my XG100P is freakin awesome! It has never failed seeing months of daily use. If I walk too far from the radio and it disconnects, I get a disconnect beep and it automatically reconnects immediately when I’m back in range. I always receive excellent signal/audio quality reports from other’s when using it and the battery lasts about 20 hours. It was definitely worth the $110, which is cheaper than a wired XG100P speaker mic and not proprietary to Harris XG/XL radios. It’s the ONE Bluetooth thing I’ve had zero issues with and it sounds great to boot!

-B

 

[12dbsinad]

My PPE is replaced every 10 years does not matter if it sees 10 fires or 10,000 fires.
Coat
Bunker pants
Helmet
Gloves
Boots
Nomex Hood
Next thing you know the radio will be 10 and gone.

Totally agree. Like you, I envision this for NFPA radios as well. There kinda has to be. What a great thing for the big radio players!

 

[12dbsinad]

Yep. I dislike Bluetooth anything.

And a 2 channel Motorola HT-1000 stripped down and built into the SCBA would be really easy to do. But we all know there's not enough profit to make that a reality.

I just ordered a bunch of Harris XL-200p's. Glad I don't support fire any more, there's no way I could force myself to order XL-400's. I gotta draw the line somewheres…...

I've got little podunk towns near me popping 8K for APX8's and handing them out like candy, and most of these places are lucky to get 1 structure fire in 2 years. Yet their trucks are falling apart.... Crazy.

And you can't forget they have to be green now that's the new thing. Green makes signal penetrate better.

 

[mmckenna]

I've got little podunk towns near me popping 8K for APX8's and handing them out like candy, and most of these places are lucky to get 1 structure fire in 2 years. Yet their trucks are falling apart.... Crazy.

And you can't forget they have to be green now that's the new thing. Green makes signal penetrate better.

Yeah, starting to see this locally. Everything in my county is VHF, yet fire is buying up multiband radios like it's the only thing available. Not to offend anyone, but Fire chiefs making communications decisions probably isn't the best choice.

On the flip side….
I need to update our PD radio system. Counties on both sides went 700MHz trunked, yet are sitting on a crapload of VHF pairs and will not release them. I can't get more VHF pairs to expand the system, so I have to migrate to 800MHz. That means all the officers have to carry at minimum a VHF + 800MHz radio. All because of egos. I wish FCC/APCO would start leaning on these agencies to prove they really need these VHF pairs. Waiting for one of the agencies to try and "sell" them to me.

)!#@%$&^*(!!!!!!!!

 

[12dbsinad]

Yeah, starting to see this locally. Everything in my county is VHF, yet fire is buying up multiband radios like it's the only thing available. Not to offend anyone, but Fire chiefs making communications decisions probably isn't the best choice.

On the flip side….
I need to update our PD radio system. Counties on both sides went 700MHz trunked, yet are sitting on a crapload of VHF pairs and will not release them. I can't get more VHF pairs to expand the system, so I have to migrate to 800MHz. That means all the officers have to carry at minimum a VHF + 800MHz radio. All because of egos. I wish FCC/APCO would start leaning on these agencies to prove they really need these VHF pairs. Waiting for one of the agencies to try and "sell" them to me.

)!#@%$&^*(!!!!!!!!

Well I can tell you you're not alone. We have this kick around here that the garbage truck needs to have the ability to talk to PD/Fire. Millions are spent on it and I don't think it's happened once. It was a sales pitch and they bought it hook line and sinker.

If you would have told me 25 years ago that a portable or mobile radio would cost 8-10K+ I would have looked at you like you had three heads, but it's becoming more and more of a reality. Basically, systems are shorter lived with forced obsolescence and now they really want to grab you by the balls by even controlling the programming software to radio interface. When M or anyone else wants to deadline a radio model for good what a great way to do it.

 

[kevinparrish]

mmckenna.

I'm reminded of the good days of effective spectrum management chaired by true engineering experts like Art McDole. . .

KP

 

[mmckenna]

Well I can tell you you're not alone. We have this kick around here that the garbage truck needs to have the ability to talk to PD/Fire. Millions are spent on it and I don't think it's happened once. It was a sales pitch and they bought it hook line and sinker.

If you would have told me 25 years ago that a portable or mobile radio would cost 8-10K+ I would have looked at you like you had three heads, but it's becoming more and more of a reality. Basically, systems are shorter lived with forced obsolescence and now they really want to grab you by the balls by even controlling the programming software to radio interface. When M or anyone else wants to deadline a radio model for good what a great way to do it.

Thankfully I don't have to go to trunked, just going to do a P25 conventional/simulcast at 9(!!!) sites. Could probably do it with less sites if I could run VHF, but noooooooooooo, can't do that. Bastards...

And, yes, I've got a trunked system here that we use for non-public safety users. Our PD has almost every talkgroup in their radio if THEY want to talk to someone else, but not the other way around. And the PD has never used it, and never will. All that sort of stuff is done through dispatch.

Stupid waste of taxpayer money. Garbage trucks need to be on Cellular PTT.


Might have to go rogue and start squatting on other VHF systems.

 

[mmckenna]

mmckenna.

I'm reminded of the good days of effective spectrum management chaired by true engineering experts like Art McDole. . .

KP

He never made things easy for me, but he got the job done.