North Fulton Radio System

[30319]

North Fulton radio net moving forward

Fulton exploring joining, Johns Creek awaits report

by Hatcher Hurd
write the author
July 15, 2013
ROSWELL, Ga. – North Fulton cities must replace the aging radio net for police and fire, but there are still some major players that are not on board.

With the state's approval of the newly formed North Fulton Regional Radio System Authority, four North Fulton cities – Roswell, Alpharetta, Milton and Sandy Springs – met July 2 and are moving forward with plans for the$16 million project to create a public safety radio net.

[Mod Edit: rest of the article removed as it violates copyright law. Please summarize and then provide a link.]

 

[MTS2000des]

Fulton county has already approved an RFP with Motorola to build out a phase 2 P25 system last month. It is moving forward regardless of what the north Fulton snobs are going to do (or not).

It is stupid and foolish for these cities to do anything OTHER than join the new FCDTRS. Why pay twice for something that is not needed? They are the ones who went and created an authority to create their own system. This is called a power play to start the creation of a new county and nothing more.

In the meantime, the taxpayers of Fulton county (both north and south) are going to be paying for the new $19 million dollar Fulton system anyway, why not use it? That is how it's done in Cobb, DeKalb, City of Atlanta, Gwinnett, and Walton counties.

 

[b7spectra]

Well, still no frequency assignments in the FCC for the N Fulton area. I'm just surprised that there hasn't been the request to re-create Milton County.

 

[30319]

N. Fulton Radio Net

This new system will be encrypted. No need to worry about listening to this system.

 

[N8IAA]

This new system will be encrypted. No need to worry about listening to this system.

Another leap backward for Interop:lol:
Larry

 

[MTS2000des]

This new system will be encrypted. No need to worry about listening to this system.

What is the source of your information? I know persons intimately involved with the new Fulton project, and that isn't the case according to them. And they would know.

 

[RobertsRadio]

North Fulton County Radio Situation

Say what you want about the cities in North Fulton being foolish or stupid about wanting "their own system", but I can tell you several cities, and even counties in some cases, throughout our State are wising up to these large, over rated P25 radio systems that are extremely expensive to purchase and maintain. Some cities are spending five to ten times the amount of money to purchase radios than they were when operating analog VHF or UHF conventional equipment and three to four times more in maintenance fees then they were when operating VHF or UHF conventional equipment, plus in most cases they are paying the county that oversees the system a fee per radio to be on the system. This may not seem much to some of you, but when you work for a city that was paying somewhere in the neighborhood of $10,000 to $20,000 per year for maintenance fees and now all of a sudden you are required to pay $80,000 to $100,000 per year in maintenance fees that is a huge hit in the hip pocket. This is outrageous because the fact of the matter is the County owns the system must have a system of this size to provide RF coverage throughout the County regardless of whether the cities within the county are on the system or not. City officials are realizing they are equally splitting the cost to maintain these huge multi-site systems with the County and other users on the system and of course it is a "good deal" for the County because it off sets the County's reoccurring costs. City's are realizing they are on the hook to help pay for a multi-site, multi-channel radio system that covers a 250+ square mile area when in most cases a city needs less than a ninth of that. An example of this related to the Fulton County issue is why should Alpharetta, Johns Creek, Milton, Roswell and Sandy Springs pay for sites in Chattahoochee Hills, College Park, Fairburn, Union City, etc. when they know they will more than likely never use them?

What I haven't figured out is why the radio manufacturers haven't proposed the option of ISSI roaming to the cities and counties. This to me seems like the most viable option when it comes to "ownership" and "operating costs" with each city having a pool of four or so repeater pair to operate in their jurisdiction and give the county's radios the ability to roam over when operating in the city's jurisdiction. This seems like it would be an excellent option for Fulton County both financially and operationally because they would not have to fund a countywide system if the north Fulton cities built out their own system with the county radios allowed to roam over when needed. I seriously doubt they have sheriff's deputies in all five of the north Fulton cities at the same time and even if they did I don't think it would max out the repeater resources throughout North Fulton.

I welcome any comments and feedback on this issue.

 

[MTS2000des]

It is foolish and wasteful of the north county cities to spend money on a duplicate system because so long as there is a Fulton county, everyone in those cities will be paying for the same thing twice. The gripe about user fees doesn't seem to be an issue for Cobb, DeKalb, Gwinnett or City of Atlanta users- they see the value in being a subscriber and not having the responsibility of procuring, maintaining and repairing that multi-million dollar system when it breaks, or replacing it when it's 20 years old, well out of extended support phase by it's maker, and on it's last leg.

The argument that user fees go up is moot- anytime a system is replaced, the county is the one who absorbs the total cost. The same thing went down in Cobb, in 2006, the Smartnet II analog system was replaced, as a result, user fees went up. At the same time, two more (badly needed) sites that cost around $2 million dollars were added for coverage, and the entire network core replaced with a P25 phase I system. To suggest that the cities of Acworth, Kennesaw or Smyrna don't benefit from being on a county network is also short sighted.

All public safety radios around here have similar templates which include each other agencies' talkgroups. Officers DO use the SCAN feature. I hear CCPD PCT 3 on Smyrna Patrol 1 all the time. During chases, this is inevitable. Mutual aid anyone? Can't do that when you make it clear you want NO ONE but your little elitist friendly cities on your network. Fine, pay the cost to be the boss. Don't want to hear any griping when it takes another SPLOST or the millage rate goes up to pay for it.

so you're telling me that Alpharetta PD who seems to LOVE high speed chases NEVER go into Forsyth (which now has ISSI with Cobb's DTRS), or Cobb county, or into the COA? So Fulton county deputies don't run a north annex anymore in Alpharetta? Please, stop drinking the separatist Kool-Aid. It's what's killing this country.

Fulton county has run the current system rather well since 1991, is it perfect? No. But with all the recent moaning on part of the north county cities about it's performance, when asked for them to add a little more to the kitty to improve those north county sites like Roswell High the answer was and still is an emphatic NO

But they are more than willing to raise taxes or cut services to build out an entirely more expensive and costly to maintain separate CLOSED network

Stupid arrogance if you ask me, but then I don't have a dog in the fight. I guess I am spoiled because I live in a county that doesn't have such a rectal cranial inversion to working with the cities within it and has always run an efficient government. So efficient, my property tax bill has not changed, and in fact, they are discussing lowering taxes in response to a surplus.

Another closed, walled garden network like Gwinnett's DTRS is what we do NOT need in this region, especially when another one is being built that will serve that area, and will be much cheaper to be a subscriber on than any new groundbreaking buildout.

I also think the cities have gotten a great deal under their current agreement compared to what other counties charge. That low cost rate has ended, the same way Sprint doesn't have the $29.99 SERO plans anymore- the money to fund that 4G LTE upgrade has to come from SOMEwhere.

and the people who put the most use on it SHOULD pay more. (Hint hint: the CHATCOMM talkgroups are some of the busiest on the current system. I know. I've seen the Genesis logs)

 

[RobertsRadio]

North Fulton County Radio Situation

MTS2000des,

I appreciate and understand your feedback, but the fact of the matter is if the residents of North Fulton continue to petition the State Legislature to re-establish Milton County, which is where I think they are headed, and this passes this will all be a moot point because Fulton County will not need coverage in that area any longer. If reborn, Milton County will be in the same type situation as Cobb, DeKalb, Gwinnett and others you mentioned and it will not be a "duplication of services" (I will address duplication of services a little more later in this post). I think if Fulton County had not continued to put off replacing one of the oldest Motorola 800 MHz Analog Smartnet II Trunked Radio Systems in the State when their vendor kept telling them to because the system had reached it's end of life then the cities in North Fulton County and South Fulton County would not be in this predicament. Dissatisfaction with county government, such as mismanagement of critical systems and infrastructure like the radio system to name only one, is only one of the many, many reasons we see cities like Sandy Springs, Johns Creek, Milton, Chattahoochee Hills, Dunwoody, Brookhaven and others being formed in Fulton and DeKalb Counties. We all know this issue of new cities being formed to have more control over local government is not just an issue for North Fulton residents. I am totally surprised that with all of the continued controversy in Clayton County that we haven't seen more cities formed down there or at least the expansion of the existing cities like Forest Park, Jonesboro, Morrow, Riverdale, etc., but I guess the citizens down there just don't follow local county government as much as they do in other areas.

Based on what you have indicated it sounds as if you live in Cobb County since you indicate you listen to CCPD PCT 3, Smyrna PD, etc. and you make is sound as if everything is hunky-dory and all of the cities get along just fine with the County and are happy with everything the County says and does. Now, I don't have an inside connection to know exactly what goes on in Cobb County government and between the six cities in the County, but I have a really hard time believing that everything between these six cities and the County is swell. I did not suggest that the cities of Acworth, Kennesaw or Smyrna don't benefit from being on the Cobb County Network, so don't accuse me of being short sighted. I think you will need to ask the police officials in Acworth, Kennesaw and Smyrna that question to see what they truly believe and have to say about that. I will tell you I have a friend who is a Smyrna Police Officer and he constantly complaints about the coverage of the Cobb County Astro Digital System because they virtually have no portable coverage on the south end of Smyrna and he is quick to say they did not have this problem when they were on the County's analog system. Can't wait to hear what he has to say about it if Cobb County migrates to Phase II and doesn't add any tower sites. To add fuel to the fire, he tells me Cobb County is wanting to move to Phase II and will not be putting a SPLOST before the voters like they did when they migrated to P25 Phase I, so this leaves all of the users on the system to come up with their own funding mechanism to replace every radio they are using now (sounds great, doesn't it?). I'm sure Smyrna could easily cough up $1.5 million to replace all of the XTL5000 and XTS5000 radios they have in service in their fire and police departments and not even bat an eye, right?

Also, I never mentioned anything about Alpharetta PD loving high speed chases and never going into Forsyth County during one of these chases. You are the one who mentioned that, but isn't this comparing apples to oranges on this topic? With Alpharetta PD being on the Fulton County Analog System they currently have to switch to a talk group on the Forsyth County System to let Forsyth County SO know they are in pursuit and headed that way, so until Fulton County migrates their existing 800 MHz System to P25 or the cities put in their own 700 MHz P25 System and have it linked to the Forsyth County System I don't see your point in using this as a comparison to the topic at hand. Either way, the officer has to switch to a talk group on a different system and the same applies to a Cobb County PD officer being in a pursuit going into the City of Atlanta. I know very few police officers and sheriff's deputies that are going to take a hand off the steering wheel to switch to a different talkgroup, yet alone try to switch to a different zone on a radio when driving 80+ mph and this applies to a Cobb County Police Officer in a pursuit going toward Atlanta or an Alpharetta Police officer headed to Forsyth County. They will do what is the safest and what they are trained to do and that is to tell dispatch to call the jurisdiction they are headed for by telephone and let them know what is coming. I will say that as more law enforcement agencies like the City of Atlanta and City of Marietta adopt "no chase policies" or at least more restrictive policies on pursuits the need for city law enforcement agencies to have "wide area coverage" throughout an entire county is reduced when it comes to this type of incident. The days of a City of Atlanta Police officer being involved in a vehicle pursuit all the way into Dallas (Paulding County), Georgia are almost gone and it's probably a good thing to reduce liability and not kill or injure innocent people. Besides, you mentioned mutual aid in your posted reply, so couldn't the 8TAC and other mutual aid channels be used in cases where one agency needs to talk to another. After all, isn't that what these are for? Would be a whole heck of a lot cheaper to put multiple mutual aid repeaters on towers throughout an area verses repeaters on a trunked radio system linked with microwave hops, right?

I understand and appreciate your points, but the bottom line is there is a lot of wasteful spending in government and the radio equipment and systems are just the tip of the iceberg. You mention "duplication of services" when it comes to two-way radio systems when you are talking about the cities in North Fulton County wanting to do their own system at the same time Fulton County finally decided to do their's (of course, this didn't happen until the cities in North Fulton had already went out on a limb and announced they wanted to do their own system), but what surprises me is you make no mention of the other three or four 800 MHz Trunked Radio Systems in operation in Fulton County that are funded by taxpayer dollars in some shape, form or fashion. Yes, I'm talking about the City of Atlanta's 800 MHz P25 System, the Atlanta Urban Area Security Initiative (UASI) 800 MHz P25 System (probably one of the biggest waste in Homeland Security dollars we have seen in the Atlanta area), the MARTA 800 MHz P25 System and I think Georgia Tech or the State of Georgia may still have 800 MHz Systems on the air. Wow, can you imagine what type of radio system could be built if someone took all of the radio frequencies, antennas, microwave hops, and tower sites between all of these 800 MHz Systems, plus the existing Fulton County System and built out one system? Talking about eliminating the "duplications of services"! Man, I'd bet you could pool all of these resources together and have enough to add two or three tower sites to improve coverage if you could eliminate two or more users being on the same tower or those with tower sites within a mile of each other. Plus while we are on the topic of duplication of services, I haven't even mentioned the fact that the City of Union City has installed a UHF MotoTRBO System for their public safety operations because they didn't want to go to the multi-million dollar route to be on the Fulton County System, can you blame them? They realize they need coverage inside and slightly outside the jurisdictional boundary they serve, so was this a good move? You'd have to ask them that. Also, what about the City of Conyers having a separate 800 MHz System from Rockdale County, at least it was that way the last time I checked. So is it really me that is really drinking the "separatist Kool-Aid" or do you think it is multiple people in multiple places? Let's face it, as long as their are separate city and county governments they are going to think and operate differently and do what they feel is best for their particular jurisdiction to best serve the citizens and visitors to their area. Understand my point of view?

I've said enough on this topic.

Good day.

 

[MTS2000des]

Roberts Radio, I get your point of view and we aren't that far apart in our positions.

First off, as far as the shortcomings of the current Fulton county system, if you look back on public records going back to the late 1990s, you'll find the very commissioners who voted DOWN the funding needed to replace/upgrade that network were all on the North county seats, like names like Riley and Skandalakis come to mind (where is the latter these days? In prison last I heard LOL). So it isn't those "freeloading South county" folks that many people believe.

As far as Milton county, IMO, if/when this happens, those citizens should bank the savings for that day and not overspend on a duplicate system now. If/when that happens, Fulton county would be in a better position to sell off those North county sites to the "new" Milton county, as they would no longer need/want to maintain and operate them. It would also be more cost effective to buy a master site controller or just merge into the Cobb/Forsyth network at that point. Sure, radios would have to be re-programmed, and this was the concern cited by Sandy Springs officials about moving to the new county system. But when you add up the dollars and cents, it is foolish to spend $12-15 million dollars today when it may be 5 years or more before the start of this new county everyone wants up there to become a reality. Remember we are talking about changing the Georgia Constitution and there are much greater issues to address than radio systems. And trust me the "new" Milton county will need every dime in the bank when it comes to starting up.

As far as the Cobb county system and cities, I never said it was all gravy over here. The city of Marietta is a great example, their city chose to pull off all non-public safety (BLW and BOE), bank the savings, and put them on a VHF LTR system instead. The city of Smyrna does have some real coverage problems, where I live (which is right off EWC and South Cobb) there is a huge coverage imbalance issue that did not exist when the Smartnet II system was in operation. When you consider that we are running only 5 simulcast sites on their current digital system when the original Smartnet RFP called for 9...go figure. But it was a budgetary issue and I think the powers that be were hoping for that large ISSI connected OmniLink system that never happened.

Which brings me to my next point: the duplication. All those systems you mentioned have always existed by nature of need. MARTA migrated to their system because their aging UHF analog system was past it's point of repair and they have a special coverage need with their rail lines running underground that the city of Atlanta and DeKalb systems don't cover. I've always said the UASI overlay was a huge waste of taxpayer money, but then the entire UASI itself is just a funding engine to feed Federal taxpayer money on useless pet projects to benefit a few vendors while ever increasing the ever growing national debt- a whole other topic together. The city of Atlanta has always had a separate radio system, and I've never understood why, but there are some people in city and county government who just refuse to work together. They city and county have a unified EMA, and library system- but not any other public safety. A separatist mentality that is unique only to this area.

and so long as we keep thinking this way, it will continue. No amount of technology can force people who want NOTHING to do with each other to work together. A wise man once used the term "herding cats" in a certain power point presentation a few years back to describe the situation with public safety radio. It can be applied to local governments in general.

and that hasn't changed one bit. But what has are our ever shrinking budgets. What I am trying to figure out is how we're supposed to pay for all this.

you mentioned Cobb and phase II. I hope there is a wiser plan and we will not be looking at a tax increase across the board. We spent way more on that project than we should have, and if you'll check the record (I was quoted in the MDJ) I was opposed to that upgrade of the Smartnet system back then, because I knew then what I know now: phase 2 was just around the bend, there would soon be more vendors with a suitable network product (EF Johnson, Harris and Cassidian), and we would could have saved millions and gotten a better system, like one with more than 5 sites when we need like 10. But I am not involved in anything other than a lowly user through my employer.

I'm just a citizen with a calculator and a brain, a government's worst enemy...

 

[RobertsRadio]

As far as the Cobb county system and cities, I never said it was all gravy over here. The city of Marietta is a great example, their city chose to pull off all non-public safety (BLW and BOE), bank the savings, and put them on a VHF LTR system instead.

Sounds like the City of Marietta is a thorn in someone's side by not always being a team player. What's up with them pulling their non-public safety departments off the Cobb County system? Doesn't sound like a very smart move to me and they put their non-public safety services on an antiquated analog VHF system to boot. What were they thinking? Did they not consider the need for interoperability between their own public safety and non-public safety departments before they did this? I bet they have some major communications problems when they have something go down that requires a response by public safety and non-public safety departments. I guess there is always one in a group that has to try to be different or thinks they know it all.

What a shame.

 

[MTS2000des]

Sounds like the City of Marietta is a thorn in someone's side by not always being a team player. What's up with them pulling their non-public safety departments off the Cobb County system? Doesn't sound like a very smart move to me and they put their non-public safety services on an antiquated analog VHF system to boot. What were they thinking? Did they not consider the need for interoperability between their own public safety and non-public safety departments before they did this? I bet they have some major communications problems when they have something go down that requires a response by public safety and non-public safety departments. I guess there is always one in a group that has to try to be different or thinks they know it all.

What a shame.

Ask MTTARadioMGR about it, it is HIS network and he was directly involved in the process.
and here are some of his viewpoints. I think the city's decision is sound, public works don't NEED to talk to PD and FD. In fact, I have NEVER heard Cobb Water or DOT on ANY Cobb public safety talkgroup in 20 years of them being on 800 trunking, despite the fact that all county radios have a "911" talkgroup.


His explanation of how and why he moved the city of Marietta's non-public safety users off when Cobb implemented a P25 phase I system is in these posts:

http://forums.radioreference.com/ge...68-marietta-city-light-power.html#post1468431

http://forums.radioreference.com/ge...onee-areawide-radio-system-3.html#post1501060

Marietta operates patches from their VHF Passport system to the Cobb 800 for interoperability, again, defer to the MTTARadioMGR's post here:

http://forums.radioreference.com/ge...68-marietta-city-light-power.html#post1469500

Again, not speaking on behalf of the city, but as a citizen I think their decision was wise. They saved money going VHF Passport, still have that interoperability (and note the use of UHF patches for other city services on UHF, such as the BOE and Marietta Conference Center).

 

[batwingz]

RobertsRadio.... you are DEAD ON. For those of you who care, ISSI 8000 has been part of the North Fulton plan all along.

 

[batwingz]

B7 Spectra. Frequencies have been allocated but not applied for pending final site lockdown.

 

[batwingz]

MTS2000des....not a powerplay or a conspiracy as you think. We call it survival. FYI, system went completely down today for an hour and forty minutes due to both HVAC's failing at the prime site. You won't see that in the newspaper.

 

[MTS2000des]

MTS2000des....not a powerplay or a conspiracy as you think. We call it survival. FYI, system went completely down today for an hour and forty minutes due to both HVAC's failing at the prime site. You won't see that in the newspaper.

HVAC failures can happen on any site. If it was restored to full operation in less than 2 hours, that is well within the standard operating timeframe of most systems. Don't see the problem here.

you should have a backup system (i.e. analog radios, UASI, etc) and know how to use them when needed. That is all part of survival.

Everytime the county has asked for the heavy users to put in on needed upgrades the current 23 year old system, they declined. This goes back to the days of Skandalakis as commission chairman. Look at the public record. It tells the truth.

There are people at the county who have wanted to replace the existing network for 5 years, it takes money, which does not grow on trees. And it takes everyone's participation.
You can't expect the county to foot the bill while the heaviest users get a free ride. Doesn't make sense.

Survival is more achievable when people work together and pool their resources.

Separatism just creates more barriers and costs more.

 

[procopper7005]

To address the comments about Alpharetta chasing vehicles into Forsyth, Alpharetta officers have Forsyth DTRS TG's programmed into their portables, I've also heard Forsyth deputies on the Alpharetta TG's.

 

[30319]

Batwingz---is the upcoming , new North Fulton radio system still going to be encrypted like the plan has been all along?

 

[batwingz]

MTS2000des

Everyone has opinions but I tend to base mine on fact.

FACT 1- The County system has gone off the air over 10 times since January 2013. HVAC at the prime site has been a cause 3 of those times. Even County personnel admit that when the system finally scrams after an over heating issue, something usually fails at the time or soon thereafter. Cooked boards, damaged tubes etc .I DO NOT blame the people that work very hard at the County 911 that try to keep this system running for our daily use.The County buildings department is responsible for the maintenance of the facilities at the sites. In other words the same guys that fix toilets at the jail are also responsible for the HVAC at the sites. EVERY site has two AC units that run in parallel to avoid ever losing total HVAC at a site. Ask yourself how this could be allowed to happen.

FACT 2- IT SHOULD NEVER GO DOWN AND THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE

FACT 3- Several of the North Fulton cities have had backup repeaters in place for years. The newer cities have had NO backup until two years ago when we were able to use UASI as a backup

FACT-4 When the original County system was brought online, there were only two cities north of the Atlanta city limits, I can speak for the first city to join at a cost of $1,474,000.00 It is public record, look it up. That city licensed and purchased two channels and associated backbone equipment to add to the County system. Something else you may not know, The original County system was paid for with GENERAL funds, meaning that all County Taxpayers paid for the original system, not local public safety funds. Speaking for those two cities, we were NEVER approached by the County for ANY upgrades until 4 years ago when Fulton decided to charger a subscriber fee, which has been paid per radio ever since. As far as I know any recent upgrades to the County system were as a result of UASI grants.

FACT-5 We are working VERY closely with Fulton County to consolidate/share resources wherever possible.

30319

Encryption has been part of the original desiggn since the beginning of the project. That being said, the present plan is to only encrypt high risk, specialized talkgroups. Many of the smaller talkgroups will also be TDMA from the beginning with all of the system on TDMA by 2017

 

[30319]

N. Fulton Radio Net

Thank you so much for the information, kind sir. Please keep up the excellent work!