North Hollywood Shootout Anniversary

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Station51

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karldotcom

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I heard about that much of the N Hollywood shootout also. But the post Earthquake traffic was pretty dramatic as well....and the Riots, well, they last for three days in ernest....and the smoke plumes got closer and closer...
 

RedPenguin

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I just found out about this incident.....

I just recently found out about this incident, while listening to a file that I found on the web, but before I never knew about it and neither did others that I know (in person).

The audio was unbelievable. I mean, police had to back down and couldn't even stop the car because the guns were no match for them. I never once heard of police having to go to a gun store for "bigger" guns before.

My only question is, and maybe LAPD or Federal fans can answer this one. Since they were unequipped for such a thing, I can see why it ended so tragically, even though, no one died, well except the two perps. My question is, now that we know insanity like this can happen, what if some morons would try something like this again in LA, or maybe even somewhere else in the US? I don't see it as bad, it seems like many cities, at least the biggies, strapped up afterwards.

EDIT: At the end of 44 Minutes: The North Hollywood Shootout, they basically say that the bank opened the next day and someone complained that the bank was not opened on time. Do you really believe this? I mean the guys in the movie basically had the ceiling falling down.

Damn after watching the whole movie, it's scary as hell to believe that something like that actually happened in the United States. It's like a mini-version of Iraq/Iran, except without the car bombs and stuff. I mean, I think most people would think this kinda stuff open happens during war or something.

Also, I know it was scary during the scanner audio, but seeing it reenacted in video form, was insane. I mean, the scanner audio was intense, but the video shows it all.

One thing, I'm slightly confused about. The movie is called 44 Minutes but the audio on the Internet is 42 minutes?
 
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mdulrich

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My father-in-law was a sergeant in the North Hollywood division that day and was the initial IC for that incident once a command post was set up. He carried a 9mm Beretta for years. After the shootout LAPD authorized .45 caliber handguns and the day the order went into effect, he went to the gun store they got the weapons from that day and purchased his .45.

The next time we visited them, he took us around the area where the robbery occurred. I will always remember one of the buildings at the intersection where the civilians were shoot next to the police car. It has a stucco exterior and on the backside of the building was an exit hole from one of the bad guys' bullets. It still amazes me that no officers or civilians were killed.

Mike
 

cousinkix1953

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The HISTORY Channel re-ran their piece about this 1996 bank robbery on Thursday night.

"I mean, police had to back down and couldn't even stop the car because the guns were no match for them. I never once heard of police having to go to a gun store for "bigger" guns before."

Certain people don't like to mention the idea of the LAPD borrowing assault rifles from a nearby gun shop. Admitting that anyone else might have the firepower to loan (they borrowed an armored car too) conflicts with their obsesion to disarm John Q Public.

SEMI-AUTOMATIC AK-47, M-16 and G-3 clones were outlawed in California seven years before this bank robbery occured. And what if that store didn't have that kind military hardware in the back room, in this post Roos-Roberti assault Rifle Ban period. He didn't have the need to stockpile weapons which he cannot sell to the public any way. The LAPD got 500 free surplus M-16 assault rifles from the Pentagon, instead of ordering them from a local gun dealer, not long after this shootout in North Hollywood...
 
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karldotcom

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the gun store, B&B Guns, still had semi autos which were changed after the Roos-Roberti Law. They had CAR15 Sporters, HK91s, and other types. They also had hunting rifles that could penetrate the body armor.

Of course, in the years since the shootout, the City of LA has created so much legislation against gun stores that B&B finally just closed up. I am not sure if Turner's Outdoors is still around, but they were one of the last holdouts near the Van Nuys Airport
 
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RedPenguin

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Well....

Certain people don't like to mention the idea of the LAPD borrowing assault rifles from a nearby gun shop. Admitting that anyone else might have the firepower to loan (they borrowed an armored car too) conflicts with their obsesion to disarm John Q Public.

Well I know what you mean. When I say it, I don't mean any insult to any police force/LE agency, I was just amazed as hell, because I would think the police would be beefed up, or at least could be beefed up if they had to.

The same thing seemed to happen in 1986 FBI Miami shootout, but in that one, two FBI agents died and one was paralyzed. Others were fairly injured. Also in the Norco Shootout, they also had problems with guns.

Yet the funny (weird) part in the first two cases was that it both involved two perps that committed bank robbies that both died in the shootout.
 
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spock00

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One other thing to note: I have heard from various sources over the net that this incidence was one of the reasons why the LAPD went to a digital comm system. I've never heard a good reason behind this since I don't believe the two were monitoring LAPD comms as they robbed the bank but the rumor has been spread around the internet. From my viewing of the incident I didn't see a comm problem but I wasn't there so... The old analog modat system seemed to work fine when I used to monitor it and had better range than the current system. I do like how they have separate dedicated division dispatch channels but half the time they tie multiple channels together anyway.
 
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cousinkix1953

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"Of course, in the years since the shootout, the City of LA has created so much legislation against gun stores that B&B finally just closed up."

Same thing happened to the San Francisco Gun Exchanhge and the Butterfield's Auction House up here. The ANTI-GUN Los Angeles media didn't tell you what happened to a deluge of surplus revolvers; when sheriff Sherman Block bought a truck load of 9mm BERETTA pistols either. I know for sure that some of them were resold by a place called JKV Shooting Sports in Salinas. They advertised those surplus S&W model 15 .38 specials on KSCO 1080 AM.

Where do these corrupt anti-gun law enforcement HYPOCRITES get off selling their surplus firepower, and then giving us a self-righteous sermon? Nice to know that author of the Los Angeles "bullet ban" was a crackhead councilman, who has two felony drug arrests and no time in prison.

The author of San Francisco's Proposition H is a potty mouthed stupidvisor. He likes to cuss out citizens and use the "F bombs" in public meetings that are seen on local Cable TV. The same guy threatened to beat the "s word" out of a colleage who refused to vote for his pet ordinance. A drug addict and a nutcase left their finger prints all over those repressive laws...
 

Radio_Lady

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NHwd Shootout & Digital

One other thing to note: I have heard from various sources over the net that this incidence was one of the reasons why the LAPD went to a digital comm system. I've never heard a good reason behind this since I don't believe the two were monitoring LAPD comms as they robbed the bank but the rumor has been spread around the internet.
I've never heard or read that, but it's not the least bit correct about their reasons for going to digital. LAPD had been considering some form of digital or narrowband voice radio since the late 80s, and specifically after the 1992 passage of the Proposition M bond issue for rebuilding the entire communications and 9-1-1 systems. P-25 was selected in about 1995 or 1996, but by then it was almost a foregone conclusion anyway. Motorola had the MDT contract under Prop M, and the lion's share of the dispatch and radio hardware, and they were regularly touting P-25 (and Astro) as the only way to go.

From my viewing of the incident I didn't see a comm problem but I wasn't there so... The old analog modat system seemed to work fine when I used to monitor it and had better range than the current system.
Agreed, agreed, and definitely agreed :)

I do like how they have separate dedicated division dispatch channels but half the time they tie multiple channels together anyway.
Having dedicated dispatch frequencies for every division was one of the driving factors for going to digital. Before digital doubled the number of frequencies, there were only 12 dispatch channels for the 22 patrol and traffic divisions, with only 77th and Hollywood being on their own. Everybody else was paired up 24/7 for 18 years. It could get quite unmanageable trying to handle North Hollywood/Foothill or Northeast/Rampart. OTOH, radio discipline was much tighter then, both for RTOs and officers. In general, the only divisions that are commonly tied now are the traffic divisions, but anything can get patched and unpatched on the fly if needed or convenient. With all the multicasting they're required to do, it often just SOUNDS like everything is tied.

One thing, I'm slightly confused about. The movie is called 44 Minutes but the audio on the Internet is 42 minutes?
The numbers are pretty arbitrary. The audio tape as released by LAPD was a little under 45 minutes long. It began with about 90 seconds of routine radio traffic before the first bank-related transmission, 15A43's "assistance" request, and it ended shortly after the messages that the second suspect was shot and in custody and that the bank still needed to be cleared. The incident lasted long beyond that, with clearing the bank and checking out numerous reports of a possible third suspect. Some versions of the recording on the internet deleted the irrelevant first part and a bit of the end, and on some the voices toward the end are noticeably higher-pitched and speeded up.
 

af5rn

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The thing that always bugs me when I listen to that tape is the stupid dispatcher! Geeeze! STFU already! You do not have to repeat every single word of every goddamn transmission that comes across your channel! You're on a repeater. Everyone heard it the first time! STFU and let the officers talk!

The communications supervisor should have yanked her out of that seat fast enough to give her whiplash.
 
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Radio_Lady

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And from way out in left field

The thing that always bugs me when I listen to that tape is the stupid dispatcher! Geeeze! STFU already! You do not have to repeat every single word of every goddamn transmission that comes across your channel! You're on a repeater. Everyone heard it the first time!

I beg your pardon, but apparently you're clueless about with the way the LAPD communications system is set up, and was set up at the time. So allow me to clue you in just a little.

"Everyone" did not "hear it the first time," only the units on the North Hollywood frequency, which in 1997 typically deployed nine patrol units on weekday mornings. As soon as the help-calls started coming in, which she appropriately broadcast on dispatch frequencies citywide, units began responding from all over the valley and throughout the city, and from allied agencies too. She was, again appropriately, multicasting the messages on those frequencies because none of the incoming officers from outside the valley had the North Hollywood frequency in their radios, and they could not hear anything that was going on. Multi-patching of mobile frequencies - which would theoretically have allowed "everyone to hear it the first time" - didn't become available until the new dispatch centers and consoles went into service in 2002. In an ideal world it would probably have been best to have everyone switch to a citywide tactical frequency, and on at least one occasion you can hear a request for that, and it seems to me that Tac 5 was assigned, but the shooting and radio traffic was so intense and non-stop that everyone recognized that there was no way the dozens (and eventually hundreds) of officers should take a time out and mess with their radios.

STFU and let the officers talk!
On the LAPD radios, the dispatchers (RTOs - Radiotelephone Operators) don't need to "STFU" (your command of the language is most impressive) in order to hear the officers talk. The system is half-duplex, with the dispatchers continuously receiving the uplink side, so they can hear their units even when THEY are broadcasting. We quickly become quite adept at listening and talking simultaneously.

In addition, during the incident there were outside-division officers on scene transmitting emergency messages, and THEIR dispatchers were, appropriately, broadcasting them. If you listen closely you'll hear a number of different dispatchers' and supervisors' voices from time to time.

The communications supervisor should have yanked her out of that seat fast enough to give her whiplash.
The fact is that shortly after the incident began, one of the supervising dispatchers specifically pulled Ms Bellard, (because of her already well-known skill and unflappable calmness) off the 9-1-1 phone board (her assignment that day) to assist the less-experienced operator who was dispatching on the frequency when it started. As it continued to escalate with multiple help calls and officers down, she did the majority of the broadcasting, while the original operator handled much of the radio-log. The CAD system was totally inadequate to keep up with the unprecedented amount of radio traffic, so everything was written on the back-up manual radio message logs, to be input to the CAD later.

Throughout the four hours that RTO Bellard stayed at the console without taking even a brief break, there were, of course, a number of supervisory personnel, both sworn and civilian, standing around her, assisting or at least observing, I didn't once hear any suggestion that she be replaced by anyone. It was an unforseen incident, and one for which there really were no established procedures beyond the routine response to "officer needs help" and "officer shot" and "tactical alert" situations, but she and her coworkers and immediate supervisors adapted to the changing circumstances.

Dispatchers typically don't get a lot of recognition for the work they do, but the officers out there involved in the shootout took note of their performance, and shortly afterwards the six operators most involved were invited by the incident commander (Lt Zingo, "15L10" whom you can hear repeatedly on the recording) to North Hollywood station for a formal "thank you" ceremony, saying "Too often we overlook the civilian employees in the department. We wanted to let the PSRs know we were thankful for what they did."

Several of the officers who had been shot made it there too, and one told them and his fellow officers "I broke down when I was explaining how I felt about the RTOs. I was really grateful to them. It was wonderful to put a face and name to the voice. A lot of time officers take the RTOs for granted, but that's something I'll never do, because of this incident."

The commanding officer of Operations Valley Bureau, in which North Hollywood is located, said "Despite the many communications challenges, the RTOs performed exceedingly well. "It showed in their professionalism and in the manner in which they were able to remain calm and keep people calm on the other end of the radio."

So I'm awfully sorry it "always bugs" you, and that you think the dispatcher whom you don't know from Adam is "stupid," and YOU think she should have been "yanked out of her seat" (to be replaced by whom?? I'd been there over 25 years and probably couldn't have done as well as she did). But then, the people whose opinion actually mattered - and whose lives were in the balance - thought and to this day think otherwise.

Now I'll STFU. Maybe.
 

af5rn

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While your explanation of the communications system existing at that time does shed new light on the situation, it does not negate the fact that the dispatcher sucked. The point that she was calm and collected and professional sounding is no consolation. She was simply talking too damn much without adding anything of value. There was no need to key up and repeat the transmission of every unit who simply stated that he was responding. It doesn't matter that she can hear the other units on semi-duplex, because she herself is preventing other officers from hearing each other, which is the more important factor.

I really thought this a simple and universal concept of emergency radio communications, but I suppose not. CLEAR THE CHANNEL! Or, in lay terms STFU! There was NO reason for that much chaos on that channel, and that dispatcher was responsible for the majority of it. Instead of taking control of the situation and working to a solution -- like the citywide channel you suggest -- she only exacerbated the cacophony.

I don't care how sentimentally warm and fuzzy everyone got after it was all over with. That always happens after a critical incident. We're all just glad that we're alive. But it is no reflection on the incompetent job that was done by the dispatcher in question, and those supervising her. If she is the best they have to offer up there, that's a pretty sad state of affairs.
 

rooivalk

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While your explanation of the communications system existing at that time does shed new light on the situation, it does not negate the fact that the dispatcher sucked. The point that she was calm and collected and professional sounding is no consolation. She was simply talking too damn much without adding anything of value. There was no need to key up and repeat the transmission of every unit who simply stated that he was responding. It doesn't matter that she can hear the other units on semi-duplex, because she herself is preventing other officers from hearing each other, which is the more important factor.

I really thought this a simple and universal concept of emergency radio communications, but I suppose not. CLEAR THE CHANNEL! Or, in lay terms STFU! There was NO reason for that much chaos on that channel, and that dispatcher was responsible for the majority of it. Instead of taking control of the situation and working to a solution -- like the citywide channel you suggest -- she only exacerbated the cacophony.

I don't care how sentimentally warm and fuzzy everyone got after it was all over with. That always happens after a critical incident. We're all just glad that we're alive. But it is no reflection on the incompetent job that was done by the dispatcher in question, and those supervising her. If she is the best they have to offer up there, that's a pretty sad state of affairs.

Especially in California, most Dispatchers are trained to operate in that way. She did an excellent job, and the radio discipline of the units at the scene was amazing.

Most of the lawsuits have been settled. Several Officers sued as well as the family of one of the gunmen, Emil Matasareanu (on the basis that his civil rights were violated, as he was initially denied immediate medical care after arrest). The jury deadlocked in that trial, and the family agreed to drop the lawsuit.
As compared to two incidents I am familiar with in the Bay Area: SFPD Officer James Guelff's murder (in which the gunman, Victor Boutwell, while armed with multiple rifles and wearing full body armor, shot almost 1000 rounds at Officers. It was a city-wide callout where 200 Officers responded), as well as the 101 California Incident. Both had Dispatch breakdowns and inadequate radio discipline in the field.

Most of the North Hollywood Shootout files on the Web are compressed or sped up. The real tape sounds much different (though the content is the same).
 
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RolnCode3

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Radio_Lady

I wish there was some way to permanently remark how excellent that post was. It sounds like a radio system that made it difficult to use in those situations.

I remember listening to a CHP dispatcher during a pursuit. She had to rebroadcast everything as well - nobody else could hear the mobile transmissions. She tried so hard - I felt sorry for her having to work in the confines of that system. It made it seem burdensome - it wasn't her fault, and she was powerless to change it.

The shootout posted about here - we learn from mistakes, improve things we can (hopefully). And even during small incidents radio communications are always difficult. Everyone has something important to say, and only one person can talk at a time.
 
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cousinkix1953

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"One other thing to note: I have heard from various sources over the net that this incidence was one of the reasons why the LAPD went to a digital comm system."

Why bother unless they're gonna scramble that kind of operations with DES too? Anybody can still listen with commonly available APCO 25 scanners. San Mateo county's new digital system is a flop and several agencies retreated to their older UHF analog repeaters. You either hear this digitial traffic 100% or you don't hear it. That might be a good thing for a commercial TV broadcast; but I wouldn't use it for any kind of emergency communications networks.

Radical nutcases from Santa Cruz were responsible for those two shootings in San Francisco! The 101 California shooter was brainwashed with anti-American garbage on the UCSC campus. A surfing bum spent his SSI checks on narcotics and guns. He used to rant about killing officers on Sunny Cove Beach according to witnesses. Nobody called the police! A landlord threw him out of an arpartment after seeing a bunch of weaponns in plain sight. Victor Boutwell drove to Frisco and killed James Guelff...
 

DPD1

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IThe North Hollywood Shootout, they basically say that the bank opened the next day and someone complained that the bank was not opened on time. Do you really believe this?

Yes, because there was also a lady who's house was right next to where they pulled up and had the shootout with the guy in front of the truck. You can obviously see in the footage that he is just indiscriminately spraying rounds everywhere. He couldn't have cared less if the gun was pointed right at a preschool there. Even though she could have easily been hit by those rounds in her own home, I believe she was a witness in the case against the city for allegedly treating the gunman inhumanely, and testified to the fact that she believed he HAD been treated inhumanely.

Dave
www.DPDProductions.com
Antennas & Accessories for the RF Professional & Radio Hobbyist
 

RedPenguin

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The numbers are pretty arbitrary. The audio tape as released by LAPD was a little under 45 minutes long. It began with about 90 seconds of routine radio traffic before the first bank-related transmission, 15A43's "assistance" request, and it ended shortly after the messages that the second suspect was shot and in custody and that the bank still needed to be cleared. The incident lasted long beyond that, with clearing the bank and checking out numerous reports of a possible third suspect. Some versions of the recording on the internet deleted the irrelevant first part and a bit of the end, and on some the voices toward the end are noticeably higher-pitched and speeded up.

Oh that makes sense, except you musta screwed up your quotes somewhat LoL, because I'm the one who originally said about the minutes, LoL.
 

Radio_Lady

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Oh that makes sense, except you musta screwed up your quotes somewhat LoL, because I'm the one who originally said about the minutes, LoL.
You're right, and sorry about that. I put that message together in two sittings, and I messed that part up in my copy/pasting.
 

RedPenguin

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Hmmm

Most of the lawsuits have been settled. Several Officers sued as well as the family of one of the gunmen, Emil Matasareanu (on the basis that his civil rights were violated, as he was initially denied immediate medical care after arrest).

Do you mean the officers sued in the same case or a different one?
 
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