Orange County Polling Question

[sc800]

Did Orange County finally do the right thing and link the VHF and EDACS polling channel and talkgroup? A few days ago I heard Village of Monroe talking to OC911 over the EDACS polling talkgroup and today I heard two SP units doing the same for a call in Kyras Joel.

Monroe was previously only using VHF, and SP was pretty much only using 800 polling in the Deerpark and SP Montgomery areas (ie, Cornwall and Highlands), I've never heard them use it in the Monroe/KJ area.

 

[APX8000]

I have not heard it linked yet. I believe if they were to link it, the first step is simulcasting the VHF polling channel off Beacon, Arden and Graham (and others yet to be added) at the same time first (similar to what Dutchess County did), then linking it to the 800 talkgroup (again, similar to what Dutchess did). If you don't, when a unit talks on 800 what tower on VHF would it come off? You can't make it come off all or that would be some serious heterodyne !

Monroe PD still has 800 in their cars and base for interop, especially with Woodbury and Harriman. They probably answered 911 on 800 and kept their primary on VHF with their dispatcher. Cornwall does the opposite..they usually keep their VHF on 911 to answer polls and use 800 for primary with their dispatch. Obviously if they are out of the car they have to use 800.

Most 2F SP cars in Monroe, Montgomery and Middletown all have 800..I have all the LIDS logged and alphatagged on my PSR-800. They only ones I believe that don't is the 2F4X cars out of Haverstraw that cover the Palisades and post 617 (Cornwall/Highlands). They talk to SP Monroe and Rockland County on VHF and rarely talk to Orange County 911 since they are never the closet car in those two towns.

As indicated above, SP Montgomery does not cover Corwall/Highland (post 617)...Haverstraw does now (don't ask). And it's Kiryas Joel.

 

[GTR8000]

Most 2F SP cars in Monroe, Montgomery and Middletown all have 800..I have all the LIDS logged and alphatagged on my PSR-800. They only ones I believe that don't is the 2F4X cars out of Haverstraw that cover the Palisades and post 617 (Cornwall/Highlands). They talk to SP Monroe and Rockland County on VHF and rarely talk to Orange County 911 since they are never the closet car in those two towns.

Which might change with the Haverstraw cars once Rockland's 700 MHz TRS is online next year.

 

[sc800]

I guess they didn't link them then. It's just really unusual to hear agencies that normally use VHF talk to OC911 on 800MHZ.

Also, e911, I have a bunch of LIDs logged as well, do you want me to send them to you to update the ecs listing?

 

[KC2zZe]

Did Orange County finally do the right thing and link the VHF and EDACS polling channel and talkgroup? A few days ago I heard Village of Monroe talking to OC911 over the EDACS polling talkgroup and today I heard two SP units doing the same for a call in Kyras Joel.

If by VHF you are referring to 159.135 (118.8) and by EDACS you are referring to talkgroup 530, be aware that these channels are no longer called "Polling." They are now called the "Priority" channel / talkgroup. The name change occured when Orange 9-1-1 switched to the AVL system.

 

[SCPD]

How come Orange County has so many Radio Systems? FD and PD are on Low, High, UHF, 800. Is it jusified to have this many? Sorry for the stupid question, it's just confusion at times to remember who's on what system.

 

[sc800]

No, its really not justified. Although I don't quite know why it exists the way it does. Someone else would be better suited to answer that question.

 

[GTR8000]

Interoperable Emergency Communications - Orange County, New York

County Interoperable Communications Plan

That 67 page document should answer a lot of basic questions about Orange County's radio systems that I've seen asked over and over again.

 

[radioman2001]

Linking 800 to VHF shouldn't be that hard, I would pick the site with the best VHF coverage, and can pick up the 800 talk group. E Fishkill PD does the cross patch on UHF, works fine from just the Hosner Mt site.
I also notice from their documents that a majority of their base stations and probably mobiles are not narrow band compliant. Maybe the reason for the 700 system?

 

[GTR8000]

Linking 800 to VHF shouldn't be that hard, I would pick the site with the best VHF coverage, and can pick up the 800 talk group. E Fishkill PD does the cross patch on UHF, works fine from just the Hosner Mt site.

Much easier said than done. You can't really compare a 57 square mile town that is largely flat terrain, with an entire 840 square mile county of extremely varied terrain ranging from sea level to 1,600' peaks. If you read the document I posted, you'd quickly realize just how many towers OC needs to cover the entire county, and even that coverage is marginal at best in some cases.

I also notice from their documents that a majority of their base stations and probably mobiles are not narrow band compliant. Maybe the reason for the 700 system?

What 700 system? You're thinking of Rockland, not Orange.

 

[radioman2001]

Ah, I see, so what you are saying is that no one base can hear across the entire county, well what about a zoned cross patch. Since you have to change channels anyway, select the closest tower, much easier than selecting radios. I don't listen to Orange County except when traveling through.

 

[GTR8000]

It would be really tough to find a single site in the county that would receive everything. Now if they had all the sites voted, it might be an easier task to feed the comparator's audio into the 800 system, but they don't. Take a look at page 12 of that document, and you'll quickly realize what a mess it is. Not only does the dispatcher have to select the tower they want to transmit from, but the units in the field must select the proper channel to ensure they hit the nearest repeater (the input PL's are all different).

Both dispatchers and mobile subscribers must select which tower they want to communicate through by selecting a discrete Continuous Tone-Coded Squelch System (CTCSS) tone. The dispatchers and mobile subscribers must be aware of which tower site(s) provide coverage for the area of the county in which they are operating. Users report that switching between towers can be problematic. VHF High Band coverage is also limited in some areas of the county.

The EDAC and VHF HB 911 Polling channels are linked so that both EDAC and 911 Polling channel users hear the poll at the same time. They do not have two-way communications between the two systems.

So essentially, they're not "linked" so much as they're simply transmitting over both systems simultaneously from the consoles.

 

[radioman2001]

Agreed, it looks complicated to the users, I wonder why they abandonded their Low Band, that certainly would have given the required coverage. Voting the VHF system receivers and simulcasting the transmitters sounds like a reasonable solution for coverage problems. Especially if they have to replace all those MASTR II bases they have for narrow banding. Westchester County PD did that 20 years ago, it took a long time to get the timing and phase distortion corrected, but they have a good sounding and excellent coverage system.
I am assuming that all the bases are wire line controlled, so there is no additional costs there. MASTR III bases do have a simulcast option, as well as P-25. If I were to redesign the system, that's how I would go, and then simulcast it on the 800 if it were even needed

 

[GTR8000]

The LB system has not been abandoned. There seems to be quite a bit of misinformation in that other thread regarding the supposed mass exodus by NYS fire depts away from LB (including one fella in particular from Massachusetts who seems to believe he's on top of what goes on in every corner of the nation!). That's not really the case, most counties still maintain very active LB fire systems. There's no shortage of LB fire to listen to in the Hudson Valley. Even counties that have moved to UHF systems (Dutchess, for example) still maintain LB at some level. What is happening is that fireground communications are moving to UHF, while dispatch/response and truck-to-truck is by and large remaining on LB. Yes, some depts have taken it upon themselves to build out LB<>UHF crossband repeaters, but in the case of Orange County, the county itself does not maintain any UHF fire systems (aside from the countywide UHF fireground radio plan).

In any case, that's off topic, we're mainly discussing the VHF/800 PD systems in this thread, not LB/UHF FD systems.

 

[radioman2001]

"In any case, that's off topic, we're mainly discussing the VHF/800 PD systems in this thread, not LB/UHF FD systems"

I thought I was? A mention of LB didn't constitute talking about LB fire and the like, did it?

 

[GTR8000]

Agreed, it looks complicated to the users, I wonder why they abandonded their Low Band, that certainly would have given the required coverage.

I wasn't sure what that had to do with the VHF/800 PD systems. I couldn't even tell you the last time any OC PD was on LB, it's been decades. I just took a quick look through my 1977 Police Call, and they were already on VHF across the county. In fact, I couldn't even find any lingering LB licenses for any PD or county agencies in 1977, so we're talking ancient history (NYSP LB usage within the county's borders notwithstanding). Any discussion about LB in OC for the past few decades primarily relates to Fire.

Or maybe I just misunderstood the point you were trying to make?

 

[radioman2001]

Probably, my point is why did they leave LB if it worked and it is such a mess for the VHF system. Yes I know it is ancient history about most PD agencies and LB. Started in 1973 with the LEAA grants. NYSP was in 1975-76. That was another time where the radio salesmen were working overtime to get people to a new band, VHF, sound familiar?

 

[GTR8000]

Everything old is new again! :lol:

 

[radioman2001]

So true, but is it an improvement? LOL

 

[GTR8000]

It's certainly interesting, at the very least! I suppose the right word might be "inevitable". It's tough to escape the reality of new technology and the latest whiz bang gadgets, which seem to have a life cycle of about a month at best. Don't get me wrong, I've seen UHF/800 systems that were well designed and purpose built work quite well, but at no small cost. Not just monetarily, but almost always at some interoperability and ease-of-use expense as well.

Call me old fashioned, but there is nothing quite like a good old analog 100+ watt low band mobile with a roof mounted 60" whip antenna that can transmit point-to-point for miles without breaking a sweat. Especially when the dung hits the fan, it's nice to be able to key that mic and know someone out there can hear you clearly. The counter arguments about skip and whatnot hampering low band comms are largely moot if you employ a PL.

New technology certainly has its place, but so does decades worth of rock solid, proven technology. Unfortunately, there's absolutely no money to be made selling low band Maratracs or Micors, so we're instead forced into some absurdly short life cycle where millions have to be spent every decade or so to "upgrade" to the very latest system with all the requisite bells and whistles.

Now I'm getting off topic, but so be it lol. I will say this though, that even with Rockland's new 700 TRS just around the corner (they're out at Schaumburg this week testing the system) which will include UHF T-Band Fire Paging, the sentiment I love best is "46.18 isn't going anywhere as long as I have a say in the matter! I don't care if I have to dumpster dive to keep that thing running!", to paraphrase a good friend of mine who indeed does have the final say in the matter!