Orange County Virginia

[noseymedic]

Our beloved sheriff has seen fit to put all SO comms on the P25 phase 2 (TDMA) standard. Supposedly, all comms are also encrypted.

The local PD's have been left to fend for themselves (but it appears that there was enough money left from the Counties grant to purchase some radios for the towns) on analog whilst the SO is Digital.

They also appear to have added some new frequencies.

The new radios are the MotoTRBO 6550 for the handheld, and the 4550 for the mobile.

Supposedly the Fire and Rescue will be following to digital eventually.

Rant: Why do these knotheads think that they have to go secure with everything?! Is there such significant crime in the county that they are afraid that the bad guys are everywhere? Why not just dedicate a channel for DMV and tactical comms that are 100% secure??? I remember a few years back an individual sued the local PD for going 100% secured, and he won on the grounds of by the PD going 100% secure, there is no civilian oversight of the police. Which we all know that the police feel that we do not need to or should not be having any kind of oversight of them. Just another notch on the way to the 100% police state.

Kind of makes you wonder what they're hiding doesn't it??? Good luck commarades, and beware of the Commisar. Remember, you exist for the benefit of the state. End of Rant. Thank you.

I have heard that Greene county may have gone digital already as well. Can anyone confirm this?

 

[dtscho]

Orange SO on 155.3700 is not Project 25 Phase II. They're using MOTOTRBO, which is TDMA like P25 Phase II, but is not the same.

I agree with you that the routine dispatch channels should remain open to the public. I'm not sure if Orange is using encryption on their MOTOTRBO channel, or if the public cannot monitor simply because it's digital.

I think it would be a much better idea for these counties to switch to Project 25 on their legacy VHF frequencies, instead of going to something like MOTOTRBO.

I was kind of wondering about Greene as well. I haven't heard anything on 158.7300 (analog or digital) in a while.

Dave

 

[W2NJS]

Greene's 158.73 analog FM was very active last Sunday when I drove up the Drive to 33 and over through Stanardsville to Ruckersville. In the past, FWIW, Greene SO used analog FM which was often
interspersed with some kind of secure voice, maybe DES, when giving sensitive dispatch data.

 

[MOTORHEAD3902]

To the OP:

Nice generalization in your post:

"Which we all know that the police feel that we do not need to or should not be having any kind of oversight of them. Just another notch on the way to the 100% police state..."

What happens when some of that "we" IS the police?

 

[noseymedic]

The that "we" being LEOs, would also include me. I'm just not one of the elitist that thinks that everything needs to be kept from the public.

Example... during the summer months, you could frequently hear LEOs looking for a group of kids messing around in vehicles. Then you'd hear the usual comment about "So-and-so has a scanner. Be careful what you say".

There's a perfect example of when to go encrypted. My county for example does not have such a high rate of crime that they need to worry about the bad guys intercepting every communication. That's also why departments have multiple channels. Departments can also have the radios programmed that a specific channel is strapped so that all comms are encrypted (for those not smart enough to remember to push the little button when the clear warning beep sounds).

Encrypting all comms is a very bad idea as well as bad for public relations. Especially in these days of growing distrust of law enforcement and the government in general.

On the note of Green county...

They appear to be on analog yet, but officers from the area have said that Green has been pretty quiet these past couple of weeks. but last night while talking with a few of them, we heard Green. Part of the problem is that they are using the newly acquired MotoroTRBO's. The sensitivity seems to be set pretty critically on them.

I'm writing this in a hurry, so if I sound upset... I'm not, and I do not mean to upset anyone else. No offense taken, and none intended.

 

[StephenVa]

Kicking this horse back into life... Any info on what the county switched to? I haven't been able to hear any of the sheriffs office traffic for a couple of months (just a bunch of noise) and now can no longer hear the town pd's traffic either (same noise as sheriff). I just ordered a digi scanner (BCD996XT) in hopes of being able to hear them again. Am I going to be out of luck?

 

[dtscho]

Orange is using MOTOTRBO on both 155.3700 and 155.6850. This is a digital format, but you won't be able to hear it on the 996XT, unfortunately. Digital scanners can only decode Project 25 digital.

Dave

 

[StephenVa]

thanks dtscho. anything out there that can besides an actual mototrbo radio with the freq?

 

[W2NJS]

I'm trying to understand why two counties would go for TRBO when Virginia has installed a statewide P25 digital system that's totally incompatible with TRBO. We should also remember that in Virginia the county's sheriff is an elected official so has a political mindset when it comes to possible criticism about how he's doing his job. Maybe these guys think that a digital dispatch channel somehow shields them from future problems when they run for reelection. Going TRBO when the State Police are on P25 just does not make sense. Cheaper radios, yes. Long-term negative consequences, also possibly yes.

 

[StephenVa]

Can the TRBO users still communicate with surrounding agencies that are on another type of digital or analog?

Having spent 15 years in fire and rescue in Orange County I know there will be a LOT of folks upset if fire-ems switches to a TRBO system also.

I'm new to all this so it's probably a silly question but... Is it possible that with some sort of update of firmware or software current digital scanners will be able to hear TRBO and the like?

 

[jim202]

I'm trying to understand why two counties would go for TRBO when Virginia has installed a statewide P25 digital system that's totally incompatible with TRBO. We should also remember that in Virginia the county's sheriff is an elected official so has a political mindset when it comes to possible criticism about how he's doing his job. Maybe these guys think that a digital dispatch channel somehow shields them from future problems when they run for reelection. Going TRBO when the State Police are on P25 just does not make sense. Cheaper radios, yes. Long-term negative consequences, also possibly yes.

First of all you need to understand that the radio sales force is looking to make a buck. Being that many of the radios used on the VHF band by public safety agencies need to be upgraded to be able to do narrow band operation, the greed of the radio sales people kicks in. They see dollar signs when a new radio needs to be purchased. As the top of the line radios are going for better than $5000 plus each, there is a problem. The Mototrbo radios cost a lot less than that. Plus no one can easily monitor the transmission in the normal digital mode.

So the S.O. sees the ability to obtain a pile of radios at a far cheaper cost than going with the top of the line selection. They think they are getting a deal and solving the narrow band issue with encryption problem resolved, all in one. Only problem is that there is no compatibility with any radio interoperability that the federal government has been pushing for some years now. They can only talk to other Mototrbo radios that have been programmed the same.

Time will tell as to just how well these cheaper radios hold up under the normal public safety daily use. Then we will see if they were as good of a deal as the sales force made them out to be.

 

[JRayfield]

As to the 'top of the line' radios going for $5000 plus each, you're only partially correct. There are models of the XTL and XTS series that are quite a bit less than $5000 each. An XTS2500 P25 trunking unit can be purchased for between $2000 and $3000 in some states (depends upon state contract prices).

Yes, MOTOTRBO radios cost far less than P25 trunking radios, but that's only a very small part of the expense of P25 trunking systems. The cost of infrastructure is more of a problem than the cost of the mobiles and portables in many cases. Some state systems don't provide good portable coverage throughout some areas of the state. Here in Missouri, the portable coverage for the new P25 trunking system will be very poor (maybe on the order of 50%). I haven't spoken with a Sheriff yet that doesn't want 90% or better portable coverage. To do that would require more P25 trunking sites and the cost for that is just too much for rural, low-population-density counties to be able to afford. The alternative are systems like MOTOTRBO, which can be put in for FAR less than P25 trunking systems, yet provide FAR better 'service' than what these Sheriff's currently have, in terms of coverage and performance of their systems.

I know of one agency who had P25 mobiles, and they've replaced all of them with MOTOTRBO radios and purchased MOTOTRBO portables. The reason is simple - the statewide system won't give them enough portable coverage and there's no way that they can afford to build additional P25 trunking sites in their county, to get the coverage that they need. But, they can afford to put in a county-wide MOTOTRBO IP Site Connect system and get much better coverage than they currently have with their analog repeater system. Interoperability will be taken into account, so that they can intercommunicate with state agencies as well as other agencies that may need to come into the county in wide-area emergency situations.

As to MOTOTRBO radios only being able "to talk to other Mototrbo radios that have been programmed the same", that is correct. And MOTOTRBO radios can all operate in analog FM mode. So interoperability is still possible with that. Also, there are numerous ways of achieving interoperability between MOTOTRBO systems, at the infrastructure level, with non-MOTOTRBO systems. One of these operates at the IP level on the MOTOTRBO side, and works extremely well to provide good interoperability with analog systems.

As to how well the 'cheaper radios' will hold up in public safety use - the MOTOTRBO radios meet the exact same MIL-specs that the XTS series of 'high tier' radios meet, for durability, and they exceed the IP-rating (IP-57, for example) of most XTS-series radios that are in use today (at least in our area). They're built the same way that the HT-series of radios are built, there are many, many thousands of HT-1250's in service in public safety agencies, and they've held up very well.

John Rayfield, Jr. CETma

First of all you need to understand that the radio sales force is looking to make a buck. Being that many of the radios used on the VHF band by public safety agencies need to be upgraded to be able to do narrow band operation, the greed of the radio sales people kicks in. They see dollar signs when a new radio needs to be purchased. As the top of the line radios are going for better than $5000 plus each, there is a problem. The Mototrbo radios cost a lot less than that. Plus no one can easily monitor the transmission in the normal digital mode.

So the S.O. sees the ability to obtain a pile of radios at a far cheaper cost than going with the top of the line selection. They think they are getting a deal and solving the narrow band issue with encryption problem resolved, all in one. Only problem is that there is no compatibility with any radio interoperability that the federal government has been pushing for some years now. They can only talk to other Mototrbo radios that have been programmed the same.

Time will tell as to just how well these cheaper radios hold up under the normal public safety daily use. Then we will see if they were as good of a deal as the sales force made them out to be.

 

[KG4KHQ]

Other Digital Options

I mentioned this in another post awhile back but I will throw it back up here. Motorola does not appear to offer a cheaper P25 option than the XTS/XTL line. Icom, Kenwood, and other manufacturers do seem to offer a cheaper way to do P25. There is town in the southwestern part of Virginia that is using a P25 Kenwood system operating in conventional mode without trunking. They are not part of a statewide system and I don't think they have a lot of bells and whistles but they were able to go P25 digital for probably a lot cheaper I can't help but wonder that there might have been some agencies out there that wanted to go P25 but balked at shelling out $5000 a piece for a radio and certain dealers led to them to Mototrbo instead to keep from losing a sale. Reading some posts on these boards, there appears to be, as a previous poster mentioned, a lot of confusion about narrowbanding and whether "digital' is mandated or not. There is an argument put forth on these boards that some dealers are taking advantage of the confusion to sell certain systems to agencies that may not really need them. When it is all said and done, it is really the agencies fault for not looking at other options to spend tax payer dollars.

Another thing I wonder about is what's going to happen down the road to all these agencies that went Motortrbo if the manufacturer quits supporting the hardware like what is currently done in higher end Astro systems. Look at the agencies that are having to switch from 6.X to 7.X. because the manufacturer no longer provides support. What's to keep the same thing happening with Mototrbo?

 

[JRayfield]

There's definitely a lot of confusion regarding narrowbanding and digital, but it doesn't just stop there.

You mention an agency using P25 conventional. That's fine, except for the fact that the P25 conventional spec does not provide for any kind of wide-area multisite roaming capability. The idea of P25 conventional is basically that the user only needs coverage from one site. Simulcast, with voted receivers can be used with P25 conventional, but the cost is up in the hundreds of thousands of dollars for a large enough system to cover a 600 to 900 sq. mile county, so that's still too much money for many smaller, rural agencies to afford. Now, along comes MOTOTRBO, which easily provides wide-area multisite roaming, and a price point that is equal (or lower, in some cases) to analog FM systems. Problem (good, wide-area cover, at a cost that is affordable) solved.

So, part of the problem is that those who wrote the P25 specs, did not provide for a system that will 'do the job' (i.e. provide enough coverage), at a cost that is within reach of most small rural agencies.

Oh, and another misunderstanding....."P25 is interoperable". That statement is only partially true, in some cases. P25 conventional is not 'interoperable' with P25 trunking systems, unless the P25 trunking systems include conventional base stations or repeaters, with bridging set up in the P25 controller system. So, in some cases, "P25" is not interoperable with "P25".

Keep in mind that MOTOTRBO is not 'proprietary' at the CAI (over-the-air) level. It's compliant with the DMR Tier 2 Standard. So, while some things can change (new features, etc.) at some level of a system, some things can't change. An example of a change in the MOTOTRBO line is with the repeaters. The XPR8300 repeater is no longer available, and has been replaced with the XPR8400 unit. The XPR8400 repeater has much more memory (32mb versus 8mb) and can handle some new features that the XPR8300 can't handle. However, the XPR8300 still works fine in many systems, where you don't need the new features. And they can co-exist in the same IP Site Connect systems. Firmware upgrades for MOTOTRBO equipment is all at no-charge from Motorola.

Interestingly, more and more manufacturers are jumping onto the "DMR bandwagon". Harris has joined the DMR Association (which would indicate that they might be interested in developing a DMR-compliant (MOTOTRBO conventional compatible) line of equipment. Simoco (a large European company) just announced that they'll be showing a new line of DMR-compliant equipment at IWCE this coming year (a full line - repeaters, mobiles, and portables).

John Rayfield, Jr. CETma

I mentioned this in another post awhile back but I will throw it back up here. Motorola does not appear to offer a cheaper P25 option than the XTS/XTL line. Icom, Kenwood, and other manufacturers do seem to offer a cheaper way to do P25. There is town in the southwestern part of Virginia that is using a P25 Kenwood system operating in conventional mode without trunking. They are not part of a statewide system and I don't think they have a lot of bells and whistles but they were able to go P25 digital for probably a lot cheaper I can't help but wonder that there might have been some agencies out there that wanted to go P25 but balked at shelling out $5000 a piece for a radio and certain dealers led to them to Mototrbo instead to keep from losing a sale. Reading some posts on these boards, there appears to be, as a previous poster mentioned, a lot of confusion about narrowbanding and whether "digital' is mandated or not. There is an argument put forth on these boards that some dealers are taking advantage of the confusion to sell certain systems to agencies that may not really need them. When it is all said and done, it is really the agencies fault for not looking at other options to spend tax payer dollars.

Another thing I wonder about is what's going to happen down the road to all these agencies that went Motortrbo if the manufacturer quits supporting the hardware like what is currently done in higher end Astro systems. Look at the agencies that are having to switch from 6.X to 7.X. because the manufacturer no longer provides support. What's to keep the same thing happening with Mototrbo?

 

[jim202]

Hey Ray, can you explain why the Mototrbo in the analog mode will not talk with an non Motorbo radio in the analog mode?

We were all led to believe that this was able to be done with these radios. However, I have not seen the Mototrbo do this. Is there some secret way the radio can be programed to function in what the normal world calls analog operation? All my attempts have failed to get a Mototrbo radio in the analog mode talk to a normal analog radio from any vendor.

Jim

 

[W2NJS]

Hey Ray, can you explain why the Mototrbo in the analog mode will not talk with an non Motorbo radio in the analog mode?

We were all led to believe that this was able to be done with these radios. However, I have not seen the Mototrbo do this. Is there some secret way the radio can be programed to function in what the normal world calls analog operation? All my attempts have failed to get a Mototrbo radio in the analog mode talk to a normal analog radio from any vendor.

Jim

Jim,

When I saw your question I quickly turned on my 6500 TRBO HT to 446 mHz simplex, then I turned my APX7K to 446 and they talk to each just fine on analog FM. What gives here?

Regards,

Tom, W2NJS

 

[JRayfield]

A MOTOTRBO XPR-series radio in analog FM operates no differently than any other analog FM radio. They work with non-Motorola radios in analog FM just fine.

I would say that someone messed up the programming in some radios (either the XPR models or the non-Motorola radios).

One thing does come to mind. DPL (Digital Private Line) can be set up as "normal" or "inverse". If a radio is set up "normal", then it will not work with a radio that is set up "inverse", even if the DPL codes are the same. While all manufacturers should (you would think) have their designs such that "normal" is the same on everyone's radios, I have seen one case where "normal" on one manufacturer's radio was 'backwards' from "normal" on other manufacturers' radios. In other words, one radio had to be programmed for "inverse" in order to work with another radio programmed for "normal". But, this is very very rare (I can only remember seeing this one time, in over 33 years).

John Rayfield, Jr. CETma

Hey Ray, can you explain why the Mototrbo in the analog mode will not talk with an non Motorbo radio in the analog mode?

We were all led to believe that this was able to be done with these radios. However, I have not seen the Mototrbo do this. Is there some secret way the radio can be programed to function in what the normal world calls analog operation? All my attempts have failed to get a Mototrbo radio in the analog mode talk to a normal analog radio from any vendor.

Jim