Ottawa police using faulty radio system

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kayn1n32008

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Strange they flipped the enc last week and now they don't like it.
how long did they were testing in the clear P25?
850mhz with enc not that reliable for them especially in building and around downtown.
turn off enc my be the cheapest alternative on a weak enc signal until
"Jimmy boy"find a real solution, or go back to Pro-Voice ;)
I like the complaint when using the lowest bidder!

Encryption does not decrease range at all.


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Jammin_Jay

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What about car repeaters? The portable signal would bounce off the car then to the tower. This would help inside buildings, but only if a car is nearby, not stand alone portable radios alone. The fire dept OFS also uses the same radio system, why aren't we hearing from them? They go into all sorts of buildings?
 

mciupa

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The fire dept, OFS also uses the same radio system, so why aren't we hearing from them? They go into all sorts of buildings?

Good point. Especially so when they perform elevator rescues.
 

R8000

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Mobile repeaters are a love/hate relationship. If installed and used properly, they can be a great asset. However, if not installed or used properly, they can make life miserable. P25 grade DVRS's aren't cheap. Some models of the Futurecom are pushing $10K.

To make them sound good on a digital P25 system, you need to keep everything P25/digital. From the handheld, all the way to the dispatcher's console. Using lower cost analog VRS's connected to a P25 radio is usually going to end up with repeated audio that sounds bad. Analog to P25 conversion is difficult. It can be made to sound...OK..but it takes a lot of trial and error. You can tell instantly on a P25 trunking system when a analog user is linked or patched into the system. This usually happens during a transition from a legacy analog system to a new P25 system and users are making a slow changeover.

There's a place for DVRS's, but it sounds like this situation may benefit more from a system improvement or a building BDA building code requirement.

Previous comments about the system design, what the customer asked for, consultant input..etc are all valid. If the system was built per the spec, Harris is off the hook and now the blame lies on the consultant and city. If Harris didn't build it to spec, then Harris needs to own it.

In my early years in radio, I used to not like consultants until I fully understood what they do. Now, consultants are a must for large projects. They protect both the customer and the vendor. There are good consultants and bad consultants. Good ones usually cost more, but their end product doesn't end up on the 10:00 news or RR being picked apart and questioned :) That's the difference.
 

DaveH

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Strange they flipped the enc last week and now they don't like it.
how long did they were testing in the clear P25?
850mhz with enc not that reliable for them especially in building and around downtown.
turn off enc my be the cheapest alternative on a weak enc signal until
"Jimmy boy"find a real solution, or go back to Pro-Voice ;)
I like the complaint when using the lowest bidder!
They didn't flip to encryption last week, OPS testing was on P25 was never in the clear, going back over a year.

ENC does not affect RF performance. Switching it off is not going to help.

Going back to EDACS is not an option. Sorry people can't listen anymore.

I see the EDACS system had activity on TG 337 and 363, albeit a small amount with very few RIDs...but still active on 6 LCNs.

Dave
 

kayn1n32008

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There's a place for DVRS's, but it sounds like this situation may benefit more from a system improvement or a building BDA building code requirement.

Well, you can buy 100 Futurcom DVRS versus building a new site.

Ultimately it’s a dollars and cents thing. The vendor/sales folks will tell them it is going to cost x amount of dollars, and the purse string holders will say what can we get for y dollars(usually significantly less than what the proper solution cost) and the vendor will reply ‘well for y amount we can do this, but it won’t work properly’ purse string holder says ‘do it’ and continues the problems in a circle jerk.

Previous comments about the system design, what the customer asked for, consultant input..etc are all valid. If the system was built per the spec, Harris is off the hook and now the blame lies on the consultant and city. If Harris didn't build it to spec, then Harris needs to own it.

I don’t know what the coverage spec for this system is, but I bet the politicians were not willing to buy the ‘in building, portable on belt coverage’ option.


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R8000

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Ultimately it’s a dollars and cents thing. The vendor/sales folks will tell them it is going to cost x amount of dollars, and the purse string holders will say what can we get for y dollars(usually significantly less than what the proper solution cost) and the vendor will reply ‘well for y amount we can do this, but it won’t work properly’ purse string holder says ‘do it’ and continues the problems in a circle jerk.

Sadly, that happens way too much :(
 

kayn1n32008

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Sadly, that happens way too much :(

It does.

Our provincial P25 network is 300+ sites and they only offer mobile coverage on primary and secondary highways, and portable on street coverage in 90-ish towns and cities. DVRS are going to be a huge part of our users. Especially rural police and fire.

The difference between mobile highway coverage and portable on belt coverage was over 1 billion dollars.

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gary123

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When designing a system for mobile only coverage vs portable everywhere coverage its a totally different approach. Site location/power output, antenna radiation pattern, multi-path etc all change based on this.

It is looking like Ottawa ordered a motorcycle when they wanted a car but really need a jet. Sadly this is typical of what happens when politicians and budget people get involved. They have no concept of how radios work but expect them to be perfect at any reduced price. They see radios work 100% on TV shows, cover 100's of miles and expect them to work like that in real life.

True story. I was once asked why a government organization could not just buy communicators like on Star Trek. They were 100% serious and would not accept that its NOT REAL as an answer.

Another true story. I even had one moron bring in a unopened pacakge of FRS units with the 52KM range on the package. No matter what I said he wouldn't accept they wouldn't go that far. I finally opened them up put the batteries in them and told him drive out the 52 Km and call us. If he didn't get an answer move back in a km at a time until he could reach us. I hope he had a nice drive.

Interesting note on FRS radios It is my understanding ( I could be wrong) that WSIB rightly considers these to be toys and does not endorse them for industrial use. If you have an accident they consider you have cut corners and then look for other cost and safety short comings.

Back to Ottawa. I believe that Harris built and delivered the system as specified and it probably is functioning better than the specs call for. I am not Harris fan but I have concerns over their quality or performance.
 

Jay911

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Our provincial P25 network is 300+ sites and they only offer mobile coverage on primary and secondary highways, and portable on street coverage in 90-ish towns and cities. DVRS are going to be a huge part of our users. Especially rural police and fire.

I'm interested in knowing how similar the Ottawa system layout is compared to the greater Edmonton area buildout of AFRRCS. I've heard rumors (and no idea if it's true) that the Edmonton area is simulcast, against the advice of the system architects, solely because the CoE believed it would address in-building coverage.

The difference between mobile highway coverage and portable on belt coverage was over 1 billion dollars.

And considering the system was $370M in 2005 canuckbucks to start with, that's a big deal.

There are new sites being put in, in a few places where coverage has been lacking. I am interested to see what happens when the RCMP have been onboard for a few months and their officers can't communicate in areas where PACS was full-strength.
 

gary123

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Simulcast is not the answer. It worked fine for paging where the transmitters were powerful and far between. But for radios using multiple freq, multilple close sites and relatively lower power and entering locations where multipath (buildings with lots of corridors, lots of rebar) is almost guaranteed is a poor choice. Any good system designer would not suggest it.

Simulcast does work well for applications like Metrolinx. They are outside in open areas and usually are in the 'capture' of a single site. If they are in the range of two sites its usually between planned areas (track lines) and the twos sites are about equal distance (RF) away from each other. I do think adding in the new sites may be a mistake but that something for another thread.
 

DaveH

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There is some interesting commentary in this thread by knowledgeable people, but also a fair bit of speculation based on
shortage of specific information for this system (Ottawa).

For example, is it simulcast (don't know) and if not would it solve the problem(s)? Without knowing the extent
of the problem, it will continue to be speculation.

As for DVRs I can't see that being a practical solution for OPS given their often response in single vehicles; so
all cars would need DVRs? Cost would be prohibitive based on what I read here. And what about other
non-emergency services which suffer from dead spots?

BTW has anyone checked the spectrum around 851-852MHz for DVRs, just in case there are some (and
we didn't know)? We know where OFS has them (859.xxxx) but nobody's confirmed/documented.

Dave
 

R8000

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Simulcast is not the answer.

I don't know the Bell system myself, but P25 Phase 2 simulcast is working awesome in the rural area I live in. My APX tech radio works great, and my SDS 100 decodes things just fine. Simulcast works great as along as it's engineered properly. Analog simulcast payed my house payments for many years. Now Phase II LSM is paying my house payment, and it's working awesome.
 
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