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P25 patch supergroup "formula"?

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Jay911

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#1
Hey,

Not sure if this is more a P25 spec thing or a Harris thing - aiming for the latter for the moment.

Is there some kind of formula or algorithm to determine the value (ID) of a supergroup based on the groups that are members? Or is a block of TGIDs just set aside as supergroups and they're assigned in order/some other arbitrary method?

The (relatively) new system here, a Harris P25 phase I rollout, has had a few patches put together recently - 1722 and 1727 the other day came together on supergroup 62049, and today 1723 and 1724 are on supergroup 62056 and 1723 and 1828 are on supergroup 62057.

With all this taken into account I'm suspecting that it's just a reserved batch of TGIDs that are issued sequentially, but I thought I'd ask.
 

exkalibur

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#2
A Motorola system doesn't do this odd patching arrangement - it seems to be a Harris thing. Looks similar to what they used to do in the EDACS days. Not entirely sure why though.
 

greenthumb

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#3
There was never a standard written in P25 for patching, so "to each his/her own" :) We'll likely see them both described in standards soon, if they're not already published. Both ways get the job done, I suppose.

But you're correct, Jay911 - it's a system assigned pool of talk groups set aside for patching, and the system chooses the next talk group in the pool (sequentially) for each new patch.
 
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#5
P-25 announcement groups

In EDACS, Sub-Fleet Talkgroups were under the Fleet Talkgroup, which were in tern under the Agency talkgroup. And was how FLEET or AGENCY calls were handled.


AGENCY --> FLEET --> SUBFLEET

A SYSTEM ALLCALL on an EDACS system is handled as a special form of INDIVIDUAL CALL (I-Call), and is placed from a user to LID 0.

====================================
What you are referring to as a SUPERGROUP is actually an ANNOUNCEMENT GROUP.


In P-25, ANY talkgroup within a REGION can be used for a ANNOUNCEMENT GROUP.

TALKGROUPS within a region can be assigned to any announcement group. However, a talkgroup can only have one(1) announcement talkgroup affiliated with it.

What I used to do with I was creating fleetmaps for systems before I retired from Harris (I was the person who did all the Centralized Fleetmapping on new systems) was if the user's radio needed more than one announcement group they could be alerted to, I would add in several receive only groups into their GroupSet which they could scan, and therefore receive alert messages on.

An example of this could have been a Police Officer's radio personality, who was also part of a special team (SWAT, Bomb Squad, etc.) who needed to receive multiple ANNOUNCEMENT GROUPS.



How I would usually handle this is configuration was via the groupset and knob arrangement. 99% of all users only had 16 talkgroups accessible on the radio's channel/group knob. I would load these extra receive only groups in position 17 or greater, therefore a user could receive on them, but not directly access them. In the case of users who had less than 16 talkgroups on the knob, they were either loaded directly in the 1-16 list, or added on 17 and above with the unused positions 16 and below filled with dummy talkgroups.


The official Project-25 Specification does detail the operation and procedure for all manufacturers to follow for Announcement Groups.
 

Forts

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#6
My local Harris system (London, ON) has a group of 100 talkgroups that are used for patching. Looks like they roll thru them in groups of 20 at a time (IE 60100 - 60120 might be in use, next week it'll be 60121 to 60140 etc). Essentially the same as the EDACS days.

Also... the fire department on that same system has 2 talkgroups patched together but Unitrunker etc doesn't see it as such. All fire station alerting is done on talkgroup 432 (which I have tagged in my scanner as 'Alerting'). However on a system radio it comes across on TG 433 (Dispatch) and the radio shows 'ANNOUNCE' on the display during these calls. Certainly fits into the Announcement group description as described above. Not sure how this is configured in each subscriber unit as I don't believe they even have TG 432 in their radios...
 
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#7
PATCHES, which are comprised of SIMULSELECTS and PATCHES are handled either on the CONSOLE LEVEL or on the SYSTEM LEVEL.

Simulselects are used to dispatch on more than one talkgroup at a time, and is console controlled.

A true Patch is were two or more talkgroups are patched together, and users on any talkgroup can communicate with users on any other talkgroup. This can be of a temporary nature, done by a CONSOLE. Of a dynamic nature, they are set-up and broken-down as needed.


Longer term patches are handled in the system, and referred to as a HARD PATCH (older term) or a CAUSEWAY PATCH. These could be from a system talkgroup to a conventional interop channel, or used for migration from an agency's older system to a new system.

The reserved space in the system's fleetmap used for patching and simulselects are the SAID (System Assigned ID talkgroups).

I hope this helps...
 
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#8
My local Harris system (London, ON) has a group of 100 talkgroups that are used for patching. Looks like they roll thru them in groups of 20 at a time (IE 60100 - 60120 might be in use, next week it'll be 60121 to 60140 etc). Essentially the same as the EDACS days.

Also... the fire department on that same system has 2 talkgroups patched together but Unitrunker etc doesn't see it as such. All fire station alerting is done on talkgroup 432 (which I have tagged in my scanner as 'Alerting'). However on a system radio it comes across on TG 433 (Dispatch) and the radio shows 'ANNOUNCE' on the display during these calls. Certainly fits into the Announcement group description as described above. Not sure how this is configured in each subscriber unit as I don't believe they even have TG 432 in their radios...
Yep, these can be anywhere in the system, and is implemented by the System Administrator, however they want. Blocks rotating I have not seen before. But, I retired in Fall 2012 and some new goodies might have been introduced since then! :)
 

gesucks

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#10
P25 terms - Motorola Terms
Group regrouping - Supergroup
Individual regrouing - Dynamic regrouping

Group regrouping is a system level patching (or regrouping) of 2 or more groups. Say 1,3,5,7,9. To conserve resources, the system creates a supergroup. It sends a message that all radios on 1,3,5,7,9 go to TG X. There for only using one TG instead of 5 is used.
 
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#11
P25 terms - Motorola Terms
Group regrouping - Supergroup
Individual regrouing - Dynamic regrouping

Group regrouping is a system level patching (or regrouping) of 2 or more groups. Say 1,3,5,7,9. To conserve resources, the system creates a supergroup. It sends a message that all radios on 1,3,5,7,9 go to TG X. There for only using one TG instead of 5 is used.
Thanks.

I had only ever heard the term SUPERGROUP as related to paging tones in Moto format, with Supergroup being a 8-second long "B" tone.
 

Jay911

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#12
Thanks to all, it is a little clearer - making sense (i.e. why it's done this way) is another thing. :)

I wasn't referring to announcement groups - at least, I'm pretty certain I wasn't. To me, announcement groups or "all talk groups" (ATGs) are groups which will cause a radio to rx whenever they are used, providing the radio is tuned to a talkgroup that is assigned that particular ATG. For example on my local Moto Type II system, the ATG for a large(ish) agency that uses part of the system is 48112 (in "scanner decimal" format). No matter what talkgroup in that agency a radio is on, if a dispatcher keys up 48112, all users in that agency hear the dispatcher.

What I was referring to as a supergroup is what Unitrunker calls a supergroup. An example of this is my local Harris P25 system which has patched talkgroups 1725, 1726, and 1727 together, so that users on any of those TGs can communicate with all users of all three TGs. Unitrunker reports that the supergroup for that patch action is 62091. (And, if I recall correctly, a scanner user monitoring this system would not hear any activity on 1725, 1726, or 1727 currently, but would only hear it on 62091, which is an issue for scanner users right now.)
 
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