Pro-160 trunk programming problems with ARC160

[sandbender]

I have a pro-160 that I am trying to program using the ARC160 software. The system is UC Santa Cruz (University of California (Santa Cruz) Trunking System, Santa Cruz, California - Scanner Frequencies). I can connect to the RR database and import the system and program the scanner, but it never receives anything. In fact, I get a message on the scanner saying there is nothing to scan. The scanner can receive if I tune to specific frequencies so there is no basic problem with receive, just a programming problem.

After import, the frequencies table for the bank is empty. The talkgroup table has all the talkgroups. The Settings table has the following...

Bank Name: USCS
x Bank Enabled
Bank Type: Motorola
o Closed Mode(-)
Trunk Settings:
Mot 800 System Type: Normal (default)
VHF/UHF
Frequency: 406.0000 Offset: 380 Step:12.5
Edacs ID format: AFS
Block0 through 7 are set to "Type 2"
Motorola Options: Control Channel On

I'll also attach a screenshot.

Clearly the system is not loading correctly from the RR database. The ARC160 version is 1.21 build 6 (Full Version).

Any help would be appreciated!

Thanks,

-Pete

 

[spooney]

What cable are you using to upload to scanner?

 

[sandbender]

A RadioShack 20-047. I can program conventional channels in the scanner without problems. I also use it to program my Pro-97 and Pro-106 without problems.

 

[spooney]

yes, thats the correct cable. Can you copy & paste from your pro97 program into ARC160?

 

[sandbender]

I don't see how I would paste the trunking information from one program to the other. They are different programs and different radios. How could pasting work at all?

I think one of the basic problems I am having is that there are no frequencies programmed after importing the system. Shouldn't the frequency table for the bank have something in it? Or are the frequencies set in the Settings table? There is a frequency set there of 40, an offset of 380, and a step of 12.5. Does this specify how the frequencies are laid out? If so, then why does the scanner say there is nothing to scan when I program it?

Thanks.

 

[qlajlu]

I don't see how I would paste the trunking information from one program to the other. They are different programs and different radios. How could pasting work at all?

I think one of the basic problems I am having is that there are no frequencies programmed after importing the system. Shouldn't the frequency table for the bank have something in it? Or are the frequencies set in the Settings table? There is a frequency set there of 40, an offset of 380, and a step of 12.5. Does this specify how the frequencies are laid out? If so, then why does the scanner say there is nothing to scan when I program it?

Thanks.

I can see one problem by looking at the link you provided in Post #1 to the system you are trying to import. The frequencies listed in the RR Database for that system do not specify a Control Channel frequency (normally indicated by the frequency being shown in red print) so the program cannot pick out the proper CC.

The frequency set you speak of having to do with offset and steps is a trunking table that tells the scanner how to find the correct voice frequency in use by analyzing the data stream from the CC it cannot find.

Try manually installing ALL frequencies listed and see if you get any results.

 

[GTR8000]

Yup, I was just about to say the same thing, none of the frequencies are flagged as CC's in the RR database for that system.

Go ahead and manually program the five frequencies shown in the database into that bank, and you should be in good shape. You can input them directly into the scanner, or you can just add them in ARC160 for Bank 5 and resend the data to the scanner.

If you have the talkgroups you want to listen to programmed, you can enable Closed Mode so the scanner will ignore everything else. Also, you'll probably want to enable the Status Bits, End of Tone and ID Scan Delay options.

Don't worry about the stuff under VHF/UHF, the scanner will ignore it with an 800 MHz system.

 

[sandbender]

I tried doing this before with no luck, but I will try it again. Is there anything I need to do to tell the scanner which is the control channel? If not, then why does not having a control channel in the database matter? When I import another system with two control channels, only the control channels are programmed into the radio. Alto they are tagged as MOT mode.

I am away from the scanner now, but I will give it a shot and post the results.

Thanks.

 

[GTR8000]

There's no setting in the scanner that specifically indicates any programmed frequency is a CC. That being said, if the RR database doesn't indicate which frequencies are the CC's, ARC160 won't know which ones to import based on CC Only trunking mode, so it doesn't import any of them. I'm gathering by your posts that the talkgroups are loading into the scanner just fine, but the bank is completely devoid of any programmed frequencies, correct? There obviously needs to be frequencies programmed, otherwise the scanner has absolutely no clue how to find the system it's supposed to be tracking.

Enter the five frequencies shown in the database into that bank by hand. Enter the first one, 851.4875, then press FUNC + TRUNK to change the mode from FM to MO. Press the up arrow to go to the next channel and enter the next frequency, the MO should come up automatically now for the rest of them.

05-00 - 851.4875 MO
05-01 - 851.9875 MO
05-02 - 852.4875 MO
05-03 - 852.9875 MO
05-04 - 853.4875 MO

 

[sandbender]

In looking at the bank where I put the frequencies in manually, I didn't have then in MOT mode. I can listen to the channel to determine which is the control channel (it's 851.9875). My guess is that I only need the control channel and I will try that first. Then I will add the other channels and see if there is any ill effect.
I am guessing there is some reason to not include the non-control channels. If not, then the why does the software care at all about the control channel being marked? Of course, with the ARC160 software...

 

[GTR8000]

Enter all the frequencies shown, not just the one that is currently the CC. These systems often have a habit of changing the CC randomly. Since the RR database is unclear as to which frequencies are the CC's, it's best to just enter them all and let the scanner do the rest. There is no harm entering them all, the scanner will always find the active CC and lock onto it, and start to track the system. The CC may never change from 851.9875, but if it does and you don't have the other frequencies entered, you'll lose the ability to track the system. Enter all five, make sure none of them are locked out, and that's that. As long as the bank is in CC Only mode, which is the default and you have that enabled, the scanner does the rest.

There is no reason to not include the CC's in the database. Most likely no one figured out which frequencies were the CC's, so they just added all five frequencies and didn't mark any as a CC. It seems what ARC160 does is determine whether you're setting the bank up as CC Only mode, then imports only those frequencies marked as CC's. If there are none marked as such, it doesn't know what to import, so it imports nothing. The software should probably be written so that if it doesn't find any frequencies marked as a CC, it imports them all.

 

[aharry]

Just uncheck Control Channel Only and it will import all the frequencies.

 

[sandbender]

I have attached a screen shot. You can check that you want primary, secondary, or all control channels. You get independent choices. This is a really weird dialog to present to a user. It seems like there are really only three options that the user could want. You can get the primary, the primary and the secondary, or all channels. The user should be presented with something that lets him select one of the three choices. What does it mean to have "primary" and "all" selected but "secondary" not selected? Or "all" selected and "primary" and "secondary" not selected? You may answer that selecting "all" but not "primary" or "secondary" would give you all the control channels. But then why does then unchecking "all" give you all the channels? And in the end, if you can just program all the channels, why ask at all? Why not just import all the channels?

Anyway, importing into a fresh bank with all the radio buttons unchecked, it seems like it works. Fortunately for me the only use I have for this scanner is providing a feed for this one system. I can get it working and forget about it. My Pro-106 is sooooo much nicer.

Thanks for your help everyone.

 

[GTR8000]

The 160 is a great analog scanner that's simple to program manually and easy to use thereafter. Even the user manual is pretty clear, which isn't always the case with these scanners. ARC160 might be a different story, but it's definitely not fair to judge the scanner itself based on third party software that is confusing or lacking in features.

While I totally understand the value and time savings that programming software and database importing affords, I think it also "dumbs down" people's ability to understand and appreciate the scanners themselves. I notice that a great majority of the "Help me!" threads on this site are related to database import and programming software problems, and as soon as you try to instruct people to forget about the software and press a few buttons on the scanner itself, they are completely lost or they give up quickly in frustration and blame the scanner itself. Even worse if you instruct them to take a few minutes to read the manual and follow the step by step instructions, how dare you ask them to put any effort into it. I don't know what it is these days, but it's as if the attitude is that people can't be bothered learning something for themselves, it has to be spoon fed to them and as quick and easy as possible with as little effort as possible.

I programmed my 160 entirely by hand, conventional frequencies, trunked systems, talkgroups, alpha tags...everything. While it obviously took me a while, I found the experience rewarding and got to fully understand the ins and outs of the scanner in the process. Oh and of course I also saved $65. Just couldn't see spending 2/3 the price I paid on the scanner itself for cable and software I might use only once or twice.

/rant

 

[sandbender]

I agree that it is unfair to lump the Pro-160 and the ARC160 software together. My point of comparison with the Pro-160 is also unfair. I am used to my Pro-106 scanner, and frankly I think it is simpler to use. Especially when selecting which scan lists (or banks) you want to listen to.

I bought this scanner with the idea that I would use it in my car. After a little use and some more thought I decided that I would just get a mount for the Pro-106 that I have and use that instead. My second use for the scanner was to feed the system from our local University. I probably would not have purchased the software if that was originally the only thing I wanted to do with the scanner. Although if I am not going to be using the scanner then I really don't want to take the time to learn to program it.

You can't fault people though for not wanting to get intimate with the details of their scanner or how radio systems work in general. People have a goal that they want to accomplish. They want to minimize the time they spend doing that.

I have designed consumer electronics products and am intimately familiar with the current state of the art in computer and electronics technology. I know what is possible. So I look at scanners and their software and see how primitive they are compared to what is possible. What I forget to take into account is the size of the market. The economies of scale that apply to computers and cell phones don't apply to scanners. Just think what a scanner would look like if the design had the same resources brought to bear on it as the iPhone did. Now that would be a cool device. However, amortize hundreds of millions of dollars of development (more likely billions if you include the development of the mixed signal chips used in the phone) over the user base and you get a really cool scanner for $1 million a pop.

Anyway, thanks for your help in getting my feed up and running.

-Pete