Quantar or Tait TB9100 for P25C?

[BMDaug]

I’m looking at a P25C repeater setup with easy integration with a remote console... The Tait seems like a cleaner solution with Roip and ability to encrypt without additional modules, but I hear lots of good things about Quantars and it seems like there is more readily available information regarding how to build a viable system. I have a few options as far as repeater sites in the area and I’d like to add remote console support in the future. The sites have microwave links and several of the sites have linked ham repeaters so I think I could just run a vpn and the Tait would be almost plug and play with modern console software like Mindshare (hoping to talk to them this week) etc. Any thoughts on which solution is the best fit? The used market is flush with both of these units and I’d like to make a move sooner rather than later…

Thanks,
Brian

 

[wgbecks]

A Quantar repeater doesn't require an encryption module to act as a conventional repeater, but it would need to be connected to a DIU3000
E/W an appropriate encryption module via a V.24 link to interface to a remote console. The DIU3000's, and especially the encryption modules are getting hard to find and can be rather costly.

The DIU3000 is capable of Analog and P25 Clear & Encrypted modes, but it also requires a voice grade circuit to in addition to the V.24
link going to the Quantar if Analog (FM) operation is also desired. Of course, a DIU is not needed for Analog only remote console operation.

 

[mmckenna]

I have Quantars at work, and the county I'm in has Tait's installed at some of my sites.

Either one will work fine, and both are well respected in the industry.

Motorola is, well, Motorola, so you have all the challenges and benefits that come with that. There are a lot of used Quantars on E-bay, so finding what you need probably won't be much of a challenge.
They are pretty darn rock solid. I accidentally keyed on up locally and didn't realize it. Was a day or two later when I discovered it. That was 10 years ago, it's been fine, never a hiccup with it. Deadkey for 24-48 hours (can't remember).

Tait, as a company, is a bit easier to work with than Motorola. They make nice stuff and don't have quite all the proprietary tricks that Motorola has.

If you are trying to make a choice, look at how much rack space you have, what sort of power is available, what local support is like, and what prices are like. You won't go wrong with either one.

 

[Project25_MASTR]

Understand Quantar's are older than dirt (just kidding but they came out in the mid-90's) which is the reason they are so plentiful. You can convert them to non-Motorola protocols such as DFSI (which is the IP protocol nearly all 3rd party console manufacturers support) with the use of a RIC-M (which will set you back more than a used Quantar will). They are fairly reliable repeaters and their only real weakness is that they rely on the power supply fans to keep the supply operational (if one fails the power supply will cook itself in about 5 minutes unless you are forcing external air flow through the unit) and are intended to be used in a climate controlled environment (no hotter than about 75F). They are continuous duty and many have been in use as the active control channel in Motorola trunking systems for the better part of 20 years now (i.e. theoretically there are some out there that have been continuously keyed for for over a decade and haven't died).

I don't know a ton in regards to the Tait TB9100 other than it supports DFSI and has been approved as an alternate to EF Johnson repeaters on Atlas systems.

 

[prcguy]

If a Quantar fan is anything but quiet you just replace it and enjoy many more years of trouble free service. I just had one with a frozen/stuck power supply fan and transmitted for quite awhile as a test and it didn't seem to care. Fan swap took about 5min including drilling out a couple of rivets. On another unit through here recently I transmitted for about an hour solid and the power supply fan didn't come on for about 30min and when it did the exhaust felt cool, so the power supplies (Onan in this case) seem very efficient.

Understand Quantar's are older than dirt (just kidding but they came out in the mid-90's) which is the reason they are so plentiful. You can convert them to non-Motorola protocols such as DFSI (which is the IP protocol nearly all 3rd party console manufacturers support) with the use of a RIC-M (which will set you back more than a used Quantar will). They are fairly reliable repeaters and their only real weakness is that they rely on the power supply fans to keep the supply operational (if one fails the power supply will cook itself in about 5 minutes unless you are forcing external air flow through the unit) and are intended to be used in a climate controlled environment (no hotter than about 75F). They are continuous duty and many have been in use as the active control channel in Motorola trunking systems for the better part of 20 years now (i.e. theoretically there are some out there that have been continuously keyed for for over a decade and haven't died).

I don't know a ton in regards to the Tait TB9100 other than it supports DFSI and has been approved as an alternate to EF Johnson repeaters on Atlas systems.

 

[mmckenna]

They are fairly reliable repeaters and their only real weakness is that they rely on the power supply fans to keep the supply operational (if one fails the power supply will cook itself in about 5 minutes unless you are forcing external air flow through the unit) and are intended to be used in a climate controlled environment (no hotter than about 75F).

Good point.
I lost a power supply in one of mine a few months ago, forgot all about that. It's a site that doesn't see much traffic, but the room does get warm in the afternoons.
I had a spare power supply in stock, so swapping it out was no issue. I picked up an entirely complete spare Quantar from our local county shop as they shut all theirs down about 2 years ago.

 

[petnrdx]

As others have said Quantars are getting old.
I love Quantars, they are great radios.
But if I were making the choice today, I would go with the Tait.
And I am really a true Motorola person for decades.
But worked on several hundred Taits with only a couple failures in 22 years.
T800-II, 8100s and 9100's.
All that said, if the Quantars are significantly cheaper (I doubt that) they still are a good way to go.

 

[BMDaug]

As others have said Quantars are getting old.
I love Quantars, they are great radios.
But if I were making the choice today, I would go with the Tait.
And I am really a true Motorola person for decades.
But worked on several hundred Taits with only a couple failures in 22 years.
T800-II, 8100s and 9100's.
All that said, if the Quantars are significantly cheaper (I doubt that) they still are a good way to go.

Thanks. I’m kinda headed the Tait direction. I’m really a Harris guy and I think Harris is just using the Tait 9000 repeaters with a Harris logo on them. I can get a nice one for a pretty good price. Can I load AES keys to a 9000 for encrypted console support? I’m running a set of Harris P25C radios with AES and I don’t want to give up the encryption!

Thanks,
Brian

 

[mmckenna]

Thanks. I’m kinda headed the Tait direction. I’m really a Harris guy and I think Harris is just using the Tait 9000 repeaters with a Harris logo on them.

They are/were for quite a while. Harris and Tait had a pretty good relationship. Seems to have broken a little bit, but still a good option.

 

[BMDaug]

Thanks everyone! So I have some commercial channels and I did ask about a vhf repeater channel pair, but WIA told me that they don’t really do specific offsets for vhf in the commercial pool. Therefore, I have two frequencies but one is 152.915 and the other is 159.960. Does anyone see an issue with using these as a repeater pair? In some ways, it seems nice that they are so far apart… All of my SUs are Harris so entering specific TX and RX frequencies is easy. This will be my first commercial repeater setup and coming from the ham world, it seems strange to me to not have a clean VHF offset like .6mHz… is this common?

-B

 

[KevinC]

Thanks everyone! So I have some commercial channels and I did ask about a vhf repeater channel pair, but WIA told me that they don’t really do specific offsets for vhf in the commercial pool. Therefore, I have two frequencies but one is 152.915 and the other is 159.960. Does anyone see an issue with using these as a repeater pair? In some ways, it seems nice that they are so far apart… All of my SUs are Harris so entering specific TX and RX frequencies is easy. This will be my first commercial repeater setup and coming from the ham world, it seems strange to me to not have a clean VHF offset like .6mHz… is this common?

-B

If using mobiles just be sure your antenna will cover this wide spread. Same goes for the antenna if using a duplexer for the repeater side.

 

[mmckenna]

Therefore, I have two frequencies but one is 152.915 and the other is 159.960. Does anyone see an issue with using these as a repeater pair?

On commercial/public safety frequencies in the VHF band, there isn't a standardized split, so that's not uncommon at all. It is an absolute cluster #### when it comes to VHF planning. It's such a freakin mess, there's no real way to fix it without kicking everyone off their frequencies and starting from scratch.

As Kevin said, if your antenna will cover that split, the repeater/radio will do just fine. In fact, it means you can run a less expensive duplexer since you've got so much separation.

 

[BMDaug]

If using mobiles just be sure your antenna will cover this wide spread. Same goes for the antenna if using a duplexer for the repeater side.

Cool! Thanks. My mobile antenna for the XG100M is a compactenna LMR-I so full range V/U/7/8. The other 100M is in a manpack and uses broadband Hascall Denke manpack antennas, the Unity portables have the long all band antenna, and all of the P7100s have the longer 150-174 antennas. I should be good on antennas.

In fact, it means you can run a less expensive duplexer since you've got so much separation.

That’s what I was thinking!

I’d like to maybe use two antennas so I can have full duplex on the console side so a SU can break in over dispatch.

the Tait TB9000 I’m looking at has the digital reciter so setup should be relatively simple. Will I need special software options to run encrypted from the console? Will the repeater pass the encrypted signal from SUs transparently? Once again, never used encryption on a repeater coming from ham outfits…

Thanks guys!

-B

 

[12dbsinad]

I have Quantars at work, and the county I'm in has Tait's installed at some of my sites.

Either one will work fine, and both are well respected in the industry.

Motorola is, well, Motorola, so you have all the challenges and benefits that come with that. There are a lot of used Quantars on E-bay, so finding what you need probably won't be much of a challenge.
They are pretty darn rock solid. I accidentally keyed on up locally and didn't realize it. Was a day or two later when I discovered it. That was 10 years ago, it's been fine, never a hiccup with it. Deadkey for 24-48 hours (can't remember).

Tait, as a company, is a bit easier to work with than Motorola. They make nice stuff and don't have quite all the proprietary tricks that Motorola has.

If you are trying to make a choice, look at how much rack space you have, what sort of power is available, what local support is like, and what prices are like. You won't go wrong with either one.

What he said. Spot on

 

[mmckenna]

I’d like to maybe use two antennas so I can have full duplex on the console side so a SU can break in over dispatch.

You don't need two antennas for that. You can still run one antenna and a duplexer.
The ability to have a radio user break in over dispatch has to do with how your link back to the console is set up. We have 4 wire links to most of our repeaters, and it allows the dispatcher to hear the RX side even while they are transmitting.

the Tait TB9000 I’m looking at has the digital reciter so setup should be relatively simple. Will I need special software options to run encrypted from the console? Will the repeater pass the encrypted signal from SUs transparently? Once again, never used encryption on a repeater coming from ham outfits…

Again, depends on how it's set up. You can have the console do the encryption, or set up the repeater to do it.
I have encrypted talk groups on my trunked system. The link between dispatch and the trunked system is just RF, as in there is a stack of radios in the rack that tie into the console. The radios handle all the encryption, the repeater just passes the 1's and 0's in one side and out the other. In fact, if I open up the audio on the repeater, all I hear is encrypted garbage. Dispatchers hear nice clean audio.

 

[mmckenna]

Keep in mind there are a lot of options out there.
I'm glad to see you are not one of those people that are totally hung up on the Motorola brand name. That's usually a sign of a whacker (I know, you are not a whacker…)

If you are going to be installing these at commercial sites where you have to pay for rack space, there are smaller repeaters out there that will do what you want and won't take up quite so much real estate. Might cost more than a used Quantar or Tait, but if you are paying per rack unit, you can save money by purchasing something smaller.

If you have free rack access, then not a problem.

 

[BMDaug]

@mmckenna Thanks for all of your insight and for sticking with me on this! I’m here to learn. Oh, and don’t get me started on M. I get that they have their place, but in general, I don’t jive with their business model…

I really like the 9100 platform because it seems well organized and clean. I’ve been looking for an EFJ atlas, which is smaller, but I’m striking out. I could get an EFJ 2600, but that’s almost as big as the Quantar and more expensive than the Tait. I also think hat the Quantar requires too much modification to meet my goals while staying in budget and it’s the largest. The Atlas is two spaces I believe. Is there anything smaller than that which will integrate DFSI and roip without additional hardware?

The sites I’m looking at are microwave link to the internet so I think I can link the console audio and control all through a VPN and in that case, I like the idea of the console doing the encryption and just letting the repeater pass the digital stream. I definitely won’t be able to afford a dedicated four wire line or anything like that.

I will be on the hook for rack space, but I’m working on a deal right now that would make it more affordable for me.

Regards,
Brian

 

[mmckenna]

@mmckenna Thanks for all of your insight and for sticking with me on this! I’m here to learn. Oh, and don’t get me started on M. I get that they have their place, but in general, I don’t jive with their business model…

Yeah, I showed them the door about 12 years ago. Haven't regretted it. Our county did the same thing with the infrastructure, went all Tait. Most of the people I talk to are pretty sick and tired of the Motorola sales department, and only barely tolerating the rest of the company.
I've got my reasons…..

I really like the 9100 platform because it seems well organized and clean. I’ve been looking for an EFJ atlas, which is smaller, but I’m striking out. I could get an EFJ 2600, but that’s almost as big as the Quantar and more expensive than the Tait. I also think hat the Quantar requires too much modification to meet my goals while staying in budget and it’s the largest. The Atlas is two spaces I believe. Is there anything smaller than that which will integrate DFSI and roip without additional hardware?

Kenwood NXR-5700 P25 repeater would be my choice. 1RU. 25 watts. I've got the NXDN version of those and they've been solid performers.
EF Johnson Atlas 4100, 2RU
Tait TB7300 1RU
Remember, if you are paying for rack space, you need to have duplexers, IM panel, network gear, power, back up batteries, etc.

The sites I’m looking at are microwave link to the internet so I think I can link the console audio and control all through a VPN and in that case, I like the idea of the console doing the encryption and just letting the repeater pass the digital stream. I definitely won’t be able to afford a dedicated four wire line or anything like that.

I don't think any of the wireline carriers will give you twisted pair circuits anymore. I know AT&T won't, and they can barely keep the circuits we have up and running. Anything you do now has pretty much gotta be IP unless you have your own cable plant or microwave network. IP is going to make life easier, but make sure you either really know what you are doing on the IP side, or get some help.

 

[Project25_MASTR]

They are/were for quite a while. Harris and Tait had a pretty good relationship. Seems to have broken a little bit, but still a good option.

Tait has some sort of relationship with just about everyone. Listed as an alternate for EFJ Atlas repeaters. Being used by Harris currently for things. EFJ sells Tait Tier 3 hardware. Then there are the rumors of more than just a working partnership between JVCK and Tait (Japan treats us like mushrooms when it comes to business decisions, per the Japanese business model).

On commercial/public safety frequencies in the VHF band, there isn't a standardized split, so that's not uncommon at all. It is an absolute cluster #### when it comes to VHF planning. It's such a freakin mess, there's no real way to fix it without kicking everyone off their frequencies and starting from scratch.

As Kevin said, if your antenna will cover that split, the repeater/radio will do just fine. In fact, it means you can run a less expensive duplexer since you've got so much separation.

Just wait until you get into P25 trunking on VHF (Other Band Trunking). It's a cluster and minor miracle that it works (though the same setup is also used for UHF as you can mix splits jumping in and out of T-band though I don't know of anyone actually doing that).

@mmckenna Thanks for all of your insight and for sticking with me on this! I’m here to learn. Oh, and don’t get me started on M. I get that they have their place, but in general, I don’t jive with their business model…

I really like the 9100 platform because it seems well organized and clean. I’ve been looking for an EFJ atlas, which is smaller, but I’m striking out. I could get an EFJ 2600, but that’s almost as big as the Quantar and more expensive than the Tait. I also think hat the Quantar requires too much modification to meet my goals while staying in budget and it’s the largest. The Atlas is two spaces I believe. Is there anything smaller than that which will integrate DFSI and roip without additional hardware?

The sites I’m looking at are microwave link to the internet so I think I can link the console audio and control all through a VPN and in that case, I like the idea of the console doing the encryption and just letting the repeater pass the digital stream. I definitely won’t be able to afford a dedicated four wire line or anything like that.

I will be on the hook for rack space, but I’m working on a deal right now that would make it more affordable for me.

Regards,
Brian

The EFJ 2600/3800 is a 6U box. Internally we are actually purging the labs of them right now. It functionality is was replaced by the Atlas 4100 and Atlas 4500 repeaters which are 2U boxes made by Spectra Engineering (which is also who Simoco get's the SB2025 repeater from). Functionally speaking, a Atlas 4100 is as Simoco SB2025NT-C with some physical modifications. In terms of P25, I don't know of anyone currently making anything any smaller than 2U.

 

[Cameron314]

In terms of P25, I don't know of anyone currently making anything any smaller than 2U.

The TB7300 is 1RU