Questions on Telepath Corporation database entry

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#1
I think there may be a problem with the Telepath Corporation system listed here:
https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?sid=7830

…it looks like Site 01 - Monument Peak and Site 02 - South Bay Area may be incorrectly assigned to Telepath. I have a very strong suspicion that these two systems are in fact owned and operated by Apple.

Let's start with what we can see from the database itself. Here is the detail for Site 1 Monument Peak:
https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?siteId=26985
The control channels are listed as:
461.925 (LCN 2 / Color Code 4)
461.500 (LCN 4 / CC 6)

I strongly suspect that 461.5 is Apple's system and not Telepath. So let's look there first. The detail from Monument Peak shows that the Site FCC licenses are:
https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?fccCallsign=WQUG687

This license shows as being owned by Telepath Corporation, and located in Alameda County. But if you look at the frequencies for this license, there is no entry for 461.500 control channel.

If you do an FCC frequency search for 461.5:
California Scanner Frequencies and Radio Frequency Reference
…you will find Telepath Corporation, but the license is:
WQQT906 (TELEPATH CORPORATION) FCC Callsign Details

I am not ready to make a submission for Apple, but I've been monitoring this license:
WQMI679 (APPLE COMPUTER INC) FCC Callsign Details
…and I can say that 461.500 and the other frequencies from this license come in 5x5 / full quieting at the Apple Campus in Cupertino. What I have so far:
461.500 (LCN 4 / CC 6)
463.775 (LCN 1/ CC 3)
461.925 (LCN 2/ CC 11)
462.025 (LCN 3 / CC 5)
461.750 (LCN 5 / CC 7)
464.700 (LCN 6 / CC8)
…which looks a lot like what is assigned (incorrectly?) to Telepath:
https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?siteId=26986

According to my SDS100, the system (and the one below) are Motorola Connect Plus (as is the TelePath) and the NetID is 10Ch.

There is a similar concern with Telepath Site 2:
https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?siteId=26986
The control channel is listed as 464.7875. There is no site license for this site.

Search for all FCC licenses for this frequency:
https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?freq=464.7875&action=sf&stid=6
…and there is no record of Telepath.

But the frequency is listed to Apple:
https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?fccCallsign=WPWU695

And I can confirm that the Apple TGIDs (incorrectly?) assigned to telepath are present on the apple system I am putting together. I have monitored Apple with my SDS100, using the stock antenna on both sites (Apple Park and Infinite Loop). So I have a pretty high confidence level from the traffic monitored and the observed signal strength that the overlapping configurations for Telepath and Apple indicate with high probability that the assignment to Telepath is incorrect.

I understand the anonymous nature of submitted data. But if someone else wants to check my work. Or if the original submitter of the Telepath sites wants to contact me via this thread or PM, I would appreciate getting this cleaned up.

And one final question. How do you go about determining that MotoTRBO sites in different states are part of the same system? What identifying information in the Telepath entry for Site 1 / Site 2 in the Bay area link it to sites in North Carolina and Texas?

Thanks!
 

mtindor

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#2
I am quite certain that Bill already is aware of those sites, and that they are using at least in part Apple licenses. As you can see, there are a ton of Apple sites that are part of that system.

1. yes, they are part of that system

Not only do they use the same system ID, but their site numbers do not duplicate other site numbers in the system but they all list site neihbors that make sense.

2. think bigger

Telepath and Apple probably came to some agreement whereby Telepath runs the sites for Apple, and in exchange those sites get to be used to expand the reach of the Telepath system. Pure speculation, but it's not out of the realm of possibility by any stretch

3. If #2 then...

Assuming #2, then you could also imagine that in some cases the sites may not be located at Apple facilities but instead the Apple freqs may be used at higher-profile locations that Telepath uses to not only serve the Apple locations but their own wider audience.

I am positive that Bill (who maintains the DB stuff for that system) is aware of the Apple licenses on #1 and #2. I suspect that he has a question as to whether the transmitters are actually at Apple facilities in those cases vs them being on mountaintops to serve a broader area.

Mike
 

mtindor

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#3
And one final question. How do you go about determining that MotoTRBO sites in different states are part of the same system? What identifying information in the Telepath entry for Site 1 / Site 2 in the Bay area link it to sites in North Carolina and Texas?

Thanks!
System ID for one. Add to that the fact that there are over 10 Apple sites that are part of the system. Then add to that the fact that all of this linking can easily be done over IP networking -- so there can easily be sites that are part of this system but located in Texas, for instance.

Again it boils down to whether or not you would want to accept the theory that Telepath and Apple have an agreement. And i'm totally on board with that theory.

I bet that in your list of "Apple" sites that you have personally monitored, you don't have record of a Site 9 through site 22, a Site 23, or Site 28 or above logged as Apple. More evidence that they are all part of the same system. If they weren't, the Apple site IDs wouldn't fit so conveniently into the Telepath site numbering.

mike
 
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#4
I am quite certain that Bill already is aware of those sites, and that they are using at least in part Apple licenses. As you can see, there are a ton of Apple sites that are part of that system.

No disrespect, but who knows what Bill knows? Where does Bill write this stuff down so we know what he knows and what he wants help working out? That is why we post on a public forum, provide background and ask questions.

1. yes, they are part of that system

Not only do they use the same system ID, but their site numbers do not duplicate other site numbers in the system but they all list site neihbors that make sense.
Ok. Thanks for the education. I see that in the site neighbors are listed in the site detail page. That information isn't immediately available in what the SDS100 displays. Presumably, it is information that comes out of DSD+. So I now understand how you identify local neighbors.

...but how can you be sure that non-adjacent sites belong to the system? I took a look at the NC site, and it has no neighbors. How can you be sure that they didn't just repeat a system ID?
https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?siteId=26988

2. think bigger

Telepath and Apple probably came to some agreement whereby Telepath runs the sites for Apple, and in exchange those sites get to be used to expand the reach of the Telepath system. Pure speculation, but it's not out of the realm of possibility by any stretch
Lots of things could be true. The database is supposed to be confirmed data. I'm just trying to figure out how some of this data came to be confirmed. If you're going to infer data, then I'd like to understand the logic behind the inference.


3. If #2 then...

Assuming #2, then you could also imagine that in some cases the sites may not be located at Apple facilities but instead the Apple freqs may be used at higher-profile locations that Telepath uses to not only serve the Apple locations but their own wider audience.

I am positive that Bill (who maintains the DB stuff for that system) is aware of the Apple licenses on #1 and #2. I suspect that he has a question as to whether the transmitters are actually at Apple facilities in those cases vs them being on mountaintops to serve a broader area.

Mike
Great! Where does Bill list these questions? How can we constructively collaborate?

And I can also say that I monitor those control channels with my SDS100 and default antenna. So I'm sure the reception isn't that great. I drive from Palo Alto to San Jose. And I can tell you that the signal has been pretty well tuned so that reception is only possible around about a mile around the two Apple Campuses. It doesn't seem like those control channels are widely transmitted across the south bay area.
 
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#5
Again it boils down to whether or not you would want to accept the theory that Telepath and Apple have an agreement. And i'm totally on board with that theory.

I bet that in your list of "Apple" sites that you have personally monitored, you don't have record of a Site 9 through site 22, a Site 23, or Site 28 or above logged as Apple. More evidence that they are all part of the same system. If they weren't, the Apple site IDs wouldn't fit so conveniently into the Telepath site numbering.

mike
I would prefer to accept data that is verifiable by a third party. And it looks like we can verify your inference. A Google search provides a thread that could be pulled:
ULS License - Industrial/Business Pool, Conventional License - WQCX474 - Apple Inc.

Note the licensee and the contact.

But I am very interested in seeing the loose ends of the Telepath system cleaned up. The most glaring one in this discussion is lack of an FCC license assignment for Site 2.
https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?siteId=26986
...how do we go about researching this to provide verifiable data?


And back to site one. How do we research the licensing to provide a license for 461.5?
https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?siteId=26985

...the assigned license:
https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?fccCallsign=WQUG687
...doesn't have an entry for 461.5...
 
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#6
But I am very interested in seeing the loose ends of the Telepath system cleaned up. The most glaring one in this discussion is lack of an FCC license assignment for Site 2.
https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?siteId=26986
...how do we go about researching this to provide verifiable data?

Site 2 seems to be: ULS License - Industrial/Business Pool, Trunked License - WPWU695 - APPLE INC

This was determined by searching via the coordinates and frequency, and confirming the rest of the frequencies listed matches the license.

It does indeed seem to be WPWU695, but what RR lacks to show is the contact information being Telepath Corp. As the OP thought, it is licensed by Apple Inc, but it is also linked to Telepath.

Hopefully that helps some. I looked into site 1 but it seems to be a pretty deep rabbit hole...
 

inigo88

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#7
Site 2 seems to be: ULS License - Industrial/Business Pool, Trunked License - WPWU695 - APPLE INC
...
It does indeed seem to be WPWU695, but what RR lacks to show is the contact information being Telepath Corp. As the OP thought, it is licensed by Apple Inc, but it is also linked to Telepath.

Hopefully that helps some. I looked into site 1 but it seems to be a pretty deep rabbit hole...
You bring up an excellent point, which is that the RR FCC license tool is amazingly useful but lacks the full information you get by doing a ULS license search.

Often if I'm trying to determine the true system owner (especially commercial SMR types) I find the licenses initially with the RR tool, plug the license into FCC ULS, and check control point, licensee AND contact information. This is normally useful when a business has changed hands and been renamed multiple times, and the FCC licenses are under the old name. Crystal Communications -> Signature Wireless Group in the North Bay is a good example.

In this case, Apple is both the licensee and the control point, but Telepath is the contact info. This definitively shows that Apple and Telepath have a formal arrangement - They are Apple's frequencies, but Apple has chosen to yield control of them to Telepath and allow Telepath to manage them as part of their trunking system.

This is the first time I've seen something like this. I would be very curious to know how the site allocation is set up. It's been mentioned above that the Telepath and Apple sites show up in each other's neighbor lists, but I wonder if (given the frequency ownership) whether Apple radios can roam onto the rest of the Telepath system, and whether other customer radios can roam onto Apple's sites? Since site permissions are normally programmed on the radio level, I would not be surprised if the former were true but not the latter.
 
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#8
This is the first time I've seen something like this. I would be very curious to know how the site allocation is set up. It's been mentioned above that the Telepath and Apple sites show up in each other's neighbor lists, but I wonder if (given the frequency ownership) whether Apple radios can roam onto the rest of the Telepath system, and whether other customer radios can roam onto Apple's sites? Since site permissions are normally programmed on the radio level, I would not be surprised if the former were true but not the latter.
Looking into Telepath Corp themselves, and their website having a "Service Area" listing, I want to say yes to your first thought. As a potential customer with limited knowledge on radios, I would expect to be able to use my radio in any of the locations they have listed. It certainly would be an appealing benefit to choose them for that reason rather than another company. As for the other customers, I think the same would apply as long as they are licensed for a particular frequency and nothing overlaps with the others. Unfortunately, I can only speculate. I wonder if they'd respond to a request for information on this subject.
 
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#9
In this case, Apple is both the licensee and the control point, but Telepath is the contact info. This definitively shows that Apple and Telepath have a formal arrangement - They are Apple's frequencies, but Apple has chosen to yield control of them to Telepath and allow Telepath to manage them as part of their trunking system.

This is the first time I've seen something like this. I would be very curious to know how the site allocation is set up. It's been mentioned above that the Telepath and Apple sites show up in each other's neighbor lists, but I wonder if (given the frequency ownership) whether Apple radios can roam onto the rest of the Telepath system, and whether other customer radios can roam onto Apple's sites? Since site permissions are normally programmed on the radio level, I would not be surprised if the former were true but not the latter.

Given what I have monitored over the last several weeks. And part of that was during Apple's launch event, I don't think that there are non-Apple users on the system.


The transmitter locations suggest that Site 1
WQMI679 (APPLE COMPUTER INC) FCC Callsign Details
..
FCC Callsign Proximity Search: N 37.32553 W -122.01344 Range: 0.1

...is Apple Park. And Site 2:
WPWU695 (APPLE INC) FCC Callsign Details

FCC Callsign Proximity Search: N 37.33189 W -122.03219 Range: 0.1

...is setup for the Infinite Loop site.
 
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#10
Site 2 seems to be: ULS License - Industrial/Business Pool, Trunked License - WPWU695 - APPLE INC

This was determined by searching via the coordinates and frequency, and confirming the rest of the frequencies listed matches the license.

It does indeed seem to be WPWU695, but what RR lacks to show is the contact information being Telepath Corp. As the OP thought, it is licensed by Apple Inc, but it is also linked to Telepath.

Hopefully that helps some. I looked into site 1 but it seems to be a pretty deep rabbit hole...
Thanks. I can confirm that Site 2 is at use at Infinite Loop.

So back to the original thread, how do we determine who "owns" the system? If folks concur that Site 1 and 2 are not wide coverage repeaters on some mountain, but actually tuned coverage for the two Apple campuses, then how does that effect listing and ownership?

And a question while we're here. Can someone provide the DSD+ or whatever tool was used to provide information on the system?

I'm curious how entries like Site 19/20 get into the system?
TelePath Corporation Trunking System, Various, Multi-State - Scanner Frequencies
...there is absolutely no geographical information. I guess I could infer they are Bay area sites, given the neighbors.

Site 19 lists 488.5125 as a control channel:
California Scanner Frequencies and Radio Frequency Reference

...did someone actually monitor a control channel on this frequency? Or did 488.5125 show up as part of the data stream of a neighboring site? And in either case, the search shows that there is only one licensee in California and it isn't Telepath or Apple...
 

mtindor

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#11
Thanks. I can confirm that Site 2 is at use at Infinite Loop.

So back to the original thread, how do we determine who "owns" the system? If folks concur that Site 1 and 2 are not wide coverage repeaters on some mountain, but actually tuned coverage for the two Apple campuses, then how does that effect listing and ownership?

And a question while we're here. Can someone provide the DSD+ or whatever tool was used to provide information on the system?

I'm curious how entries like Site 19/20 get into the system?
TelePath Corporation Trunking System, Various, Multi-State - Scanner Frequencies
...there is absolutely no geographical information. I guess I could infer they are Bay area sites, given the neighbors.

Site 19 lists 488.5125 as a control channel:
California Scanner Frequencies and Radio Frequency Reference

...did someone actually monitor a control channel on this frequency? Or did 488.5125 show up as part of the data stream of a neighboring site? And in either case, the search shows that there is only one licensee in California and it isn't Telepath or Apple...
THe wide area system is Telepath. Not only are there sites with frequencies licensed to Apple, but there are also sites (not shown as such in the DB) with licenses owned by SJECCD (Sites 19 and 20).

A tremendous amount of work has been done behind the scenes to get the listing in the DB to where it is now. I know because I have communicated with Bill in the past. There are [or were] multiple sites with the frequencies licensed to UCSF (4 or more sites).

Overall, as far as the DB is concerned, I'd bet that the "ownership" as listed in the DB would never change -- It's a system managed by Telepath. They have just established some strategic partnerships.

Making sure that every FCC license having to do with a site is listed under the site is not a primary goal when managing these systems in the DB. After all, the end user (people who use RR) have no need for that info. They need accurate information about active frequencies, LCNs, and color codes. That's it . They don't even need talkgroups because they could run in ID Search / Wildcard mode.

Another thing to consider is that the system itself broadcasts (periodically, randomly, when the maintainers want) an actual "network map" that lists Site IDs, frequencies, LCNs and color codes. That's how much of the information about the sites has come to be known. Site 1 and 2 are accurate -- The network map that the system broadcasts indicates so. The naming of the sites and deciding where the locations are is something that is up to the users and the person(s) maintaining that entry in the DB.

Yes, DSDPlus reveals a lot more than your scanner would. It is one of the things that allows one to collect a "Network Map" broadcast by the system.

I'm sure Bill will comment when he is able -- He is an extremely busy guy, and I often wonder how in the world he finds time to personally monitor so much of this system. He really goes above and beyond to ensure that accurate data ( site ids, frequencies, LCNs and color codes ) are in the system.

Mike
 

mtindor

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#12
And a question while we're here. Can someone provide the DSD+ or whatever tool was used to provide information on the system?
http://www.dsdplus.com -- But there are newer / better versions that cost a small fee. There are volumes of information in the forums about DSDPlus and it's use for discovering system information. Look around in the digital decoding forum.

I'm curious how entries like Site 19/20 get into the system?
TelePath Corporation Trunking System, Various, Multi-State - Scanner Frequencies
...there is absolutely no geographical information. I guess I could infer they are Bay area sites, given the neighbors.
Based upon a network map broadcast (along with likely personal monitoring) that indicates all of the frequencies assigned to that site as of the time the network map was obtained. Those particular sites are:

19 SJECCD - SAN JOSE CITY COLLEGE OR EVERGREEN COMMUNITY COLLEGE (San Jose, CA / Santa Clara)
WQRB342 SAN JOSE EVERGREEN COMMUNITY COLLEGE DISTRICT
WQHU695 SAN JOSE EVERGREEN COMMUNITY COLLEGE DISTRICT

20 SJECCD - EVERGREEN COMMUNITY COLLEGE OR SAN JOSE CITY COLLEGE (San Jose, CA / Santa Clara)
WIJ225 SAN JOSE EVERGREEN COMMUNITY COLLEGE DISTRICT
WQRB342 SAN JOSE EVERGREEN COMMUNITY COLLEGE DISTRICT

They aren't listed in the DB as SJCC or ECC because from the licenses and the way frequencies are assigned to teh sites it isn't possible to determine which site is SJCC and which is ECC. Only being on site / near would allow somebody to determine that.

Site 19 lists 488.5125 as a control channel:
California Scanner Frequencies and Radio Frequency Reference

...did someone actually monitor a control channel on this frequency? Or did 488.5125 show up as part of the data stream of a neighboring site? And in either case, the search shows that there is only one licensee in California and it isn't Telepath or Apple...
You are correct -- It isn't Apple or Telepath but rather SJECCD. But they are [or were at the time of a network map was broadcast / captured earlier this year].

As mentioned in a previous post, there were many UCSF sites as well -- but some or all of them have disappeared over time.

mike
 
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#13
Thanks. I can confirm that Site 2 is at use at Infinite Loop.

So back to the original thread, how do we determine who "owns" the system? If folks concur that Site 1 and 2 are not wide coverage repeaters on some mountain, but actually tuned coverage for the two Apple campuses, then how does that effect listing and ownership?

And a question while we're here. Can someone provide the DSD+ or whatever tool was used to provide information on the system?

I'm curious how entries like Site 19/20 get into the system?
TelePath Corporation Trunking System, Various, Multi-State - Scanner Frequencies
...there is absolutely no geographical information. I guess I could infer they are Bay area sites, given the neighbors.

Site 19 lists 488.5125 as a control channel:
California Scanner Frequencies and Radio Frequency Reference

...did someone actually monitor a control channel on this frequency? Or did 488.5125 show up as part of the data stream of a neighboring site? And in either case, the search shows that there is only one licensee in California and it isn't Telepath or Apple...
Just want to mention WQHU695 has Telepath Corp as their contact info as well.
ULS License - Public Safety Pool, Conventional License - WQHU695 - SAN JOSE EVERGREEN COMMUNITY COLLEGE DISTRICT

I'm quite curious about Site 19 & 20 as well and the process that goes into it all. I can easily take some wild guesses as to their geological locations, but it'd be great to know how it gets determined/confirmed/listed.


Your question for whom "owns" the system, I can't answer. However, I can provide some observations. Telepath Corporation helps companies get FCC licenses, they have antenna sites, they sell equipment and provide leasing/rental options. From this, I would guess Telepath owns the system and is providing the service for the others to use. They built the infrastructure so the others wouldn't have to.
 

mtindor

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#14
Example of a Connect Plus Network Map

Here is a link to an example of a network map (made to look prettier in the wiki, with additional documentation that is not broadcasted by the system). This is not for Telepath but for a system in PA.

Mid-Atlantic Digital Radio Network Site Research and Color Codes - The RadioReference Wiki

The point being that the network map tells you a lot. However, there are some things that are not etched in gold with a network map

  • The network map indicates sites configured "in the system"
  • One or more of those sites may not be online at the time of the network map broadcast
  • One or more of the sites may never be online
  • If a site is online, it may not be actively using all of the frequencies listed in the network map
- no need for 10 repeaters / 20 talkpaths when 3 repeaters will do
- a repeater may be down because of failure

Knowing that ahead of time, the network map is extremely helpful in confirming a lot of things. If somebody reports 4 frequencies active on a site but they weren't able to get the LCN or Color Code, one can easily cross-reference the network map to obtain that information.

The key is obtaining the network map in the first place. It can be forcefully broadcast at any time by the system maintainer; it can be set to be broadcast at specific times of the month; it can probably be set to be broadcast after something in the system configuration has changed. (I don't know all of the details -- I'm not a system maintainer).

So you never know when a network map is going to be seen. 99% of the time, somebody monitoring with DSDplus just "happens upon" a network map broadcast in progress. They capture it, save it and use it to figure out the system. You simply have to be in the right place at the right time and be a person who cares about what they are seeing.

mike
 

mtindor

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#15
No disrespect, but who knows what Bill knows? Where does Bill write this stuff down so we know what he knows and what he wants help working out? That is why we post on a public forum, provide background and ask questions.



Ok. Thanks for the education. I see that in the site neighbors are listed in the site detail page. That information isn't immediately available in what the SDS100 displays. Presumably, it is information that comes out of DSD+. So I now understand how you identify local neighbors.

...but how can you be sure that non-adjacent sites belong to the system? I took a look at the NC site, and it has no neighbors. How can you be sure that they didn't just repeat a system ID?
https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?siteId=26988



Lots of things could be true. The database is supposed to be confirmed data. I'm just trying to figure out how some of this data came to be confirmed. If you're going to infer data, then I'd like to understand the logic behind the inference.




Great! Where does Bill list these questions? How can we constructively collaborate?
He doesn't list these questions. Only a handful of people provide updates to that system. The vast majority of information regarding that particular system have been discovered / determined by KMA371 (Bill), who is not only the DB admin but the most active contributor to that system. Any chance he gets he's running DSDPlus on sites to obtain information.

I suppose you could try to reach out to KMA371. He seems to be pretty much the exclusive maintainer of that system in the DB, partly because he actively monitors it any time he gets a chance, partly because he is more qualified to do it than admins who are outside of CA, and partly because most admins are busy handling other parts of the DB.

If Bill is like me, his notes are scattered and are not something that can easily be posted in a public forum for anyone to see. And I'd argue that if people think they have information pertinent to the system, they should just click the Submit button under that system. I'm not sure how much time Bill has for collaboration. Try to PM and see what happens.

I can only speak for me, but where I handle admin chores I basically have a gazillion text files on my computer, Google Maps, and all sorts of other things that I have created to help me with keeping track of various systems. I simply would never have the time to dig that all up and hand it over to anyone else -- not that I wouldn't be interested in collaborating with others in my area but simply a fact that I don't have time to do that. Day jobs pay the bills. Admin stuff gets done as an admin has time, and I often just do not have time.

But you've taken the right step posting the thread. This is probably as good of an area as any to dialog and collaborate with others who are interseted in that system. In Ohio (where I am an admin) we have plenty of threads open discussing various systems, and people contribute to those threads when they have something to contribute or have a question they are wanting answered.

Mike
 

kma371

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#16
Well, this got interesting.

Here's one way I know. While decoding the control channel data for a completely different site, it broadcasts a channel fleet map every once in a while and lists all system frequnencies, control channels, color codes and sites.

After reviewing that data, it indicated that sites 1 and 2 belong to them. That is how I'm able to confirm that those sites belong to Telepath, who more than likely manages the system, rather than Apple.

I wrote that before reading Mike reply but he basically said what I was going to say in a much more technical way that I can. Thanks Mike
 
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#17
Bill, thanks for all of your hard work and efforts. Let me say I am grateful for all of your hard work. And I want to make it clear that I'm not disputing any of the data you could scrape off of the control channel dumps. In fact, I'm glad I learned about that. And I don't want to let any discussion of who "owns" a system to derail a technical discussion.

So let's focus on Site 1.
https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?siteId=26985

It shows a site license of:
https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?fccCallsign=WQUG687
The license shows a transmitter on Monument peak, with a radius of 25 miles.

Could you provide any detail of where you monitored the site and maybe a bit about your radio setup? I understand you were using a laptop and a SDR dongle. But I'm wondering what kind of gain you might be seeing?

I am curious because I can't monitor that site from Palo Alto, or Milpitas. And I want to see if I can eliminate as many variables as possible. Did you get close to Monument Peak? Where did you monitor it, and I'll go out there to replicate your results. The system is a Connect Plus, so it should be pretty easy to pick up the control channel.

Why did you pick this license?
Here is a comparison between WQUG687 and WQMI679:
WQMI679 (APPLE COMPUTER INC) FCC Callsign Details
WQUG687 (Telepath Corporation) FCC Callsign Details

Code:
Site     WQUG687  WQMI679
463.775  n/a      463.775	
461.925c 461.925  461.925	
462.025  n/a      462.025	
461.500c n/a      461.500	
461.750  n/a      461.750	
464.700  n/a      464.700	
n/a      461.825
n/a      462.150
n/a      463.425		
n/a      464.125
From a rough swag, WQUG687 only matches one frequency of the ones assigned to the site, and WQMI679 matches every one you found. What made you pick WQUG687 as a better fit?
 
Last edited:

kma371

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#18
Bill, thanks for all of your hard work and efforts. Let me say I am grateful for all of your hard work. And I want to make it clear that I'm not disputing any of the data you could scrape off of the control channel dumps. In fact, I'm glad I learned about that. And I don't want to let any discussion of who "owns" a system to derail a technical discussion.

So let's focus on Site 1.
https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?siteId=26985

It shows a site license of:
https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?fccCallsign=WQUG687
The license shows a transmitter on Monument peak, with a radius of 25 miles.

Could you provide any detail of where you monitored the site and maybe a bit about your radio setup? I understand you were using a laptop and a SDR dongle. But I'm wondering what kind of gain you might be seeing?

I am curious because I can't monitor that site from Palo Alto, or Milpitas. And I want to see if I can eliminate as many variables as possible. Did you get close to Monument Peak? Where did you monitor it, and I'll go out there to replicate your results. The system is a Connect Plus, so it should be pretty easy to pick up the control channel.

Why did you pick this license?
Here is a comparison between WQUG687 and WQMI679:
WQMI679 (APPLE COMPUTER INC) FCC Callsign Details
WQUG687 (Telepath Corporation) FCC Callsign Details

Code:
Site     WQUG687  WQMI679
463.775  n/a      463.775	
461.925c 461.925  461.925	
462.025  n/a      462.025	
461.500c n/a      461.500	
461.750  n/a      461.750	
464.700  n/a      464.700	
n/a      461.825
n/a      462.150
n/a      463.425		
n/a      464.125
From a rough swag, WQUG687 only matches one frequency of the ones assigned to the site, and WQMI679 matches every one you found. What made you pick WQUG687 as a better fit?
Well, it's been a while since I monitored sites 1 & 2, so I dont remember 100%. They were most likely monitored while I was at the Apple campus. I kinda let DSD run for a while and confirmed the LCN data that I already had. This was before Apple encrypted most of their comms so it was much easier to figure out then.

As Mike pointed out, I wasn't too concerned with the FCC data because it didn't really help me in monitoring what I could hear over the air. That is why Site 1 has a question mark "Monument Peak?" because that was the only license I searched for, that matched those frequencies and was in the general area I was. I just knew a Site 1 existed.

I don't know if the licenses you found existed when I was searching back then either. If they are a better match, then by all means submit them.

My setup at the time was using DSD+ Fast Lane version, a cheapy laptop and SDR I had. And a small magmount for an antenna. It's just my go-to setup when I'm mobile some where.
 
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#19
Well, it's been a while since I monitored sites 1 & 2, so I dont remember 100%. They were most likely monitored while I was at the Apple campus. I kinda let DSD run for a while and confirmed the LCN data that I already had. This was before Apple encrypted most of their comms so it was much easier to figure out then.
Thanks! I know you occasionally roam into the Bay area. Next time you come, I encourage you to put these two sites in your scan list (maybe with alert tone enabled) and you can verify that the coverage area is pretty much limited to Apple Infinite Loop (old HQ) and Apple Park.


As Mike pointed out, I wasn't too concerned with the FCC data because it didn't really help me in monitoring what I could hear over the air. That is why Site 1 has a question mark "Monument Peak?" because that was the only license I searched for, that matched those frequencies and was in the general area I was. I just knew a Site 1 existed.
Well, as this thread shows, FCC data can help corroborate other information. In this case, it can help confirm that the location and coverage of the transmitter is limited to a specific site. The posted information (based on FCC data) shows a transmitter up on Monument peak. And is sounds like no one went up to Monument Peak to check it out. So it shows how much we all trust the FCC data.

A 30W transmitter on a building (WQMI679 / Apple) is going to have a different coverage area than a 100W transmitter (WQUG687 / Telepath) on top of a 2.5k mountain top.

I don't know if the licenses you found existed when I was searching back then either. If they are a better match, then by all means submit them.
And thanks to inigo88, I've gone into the actual FCC License database… ;)

https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?siteId=26985
Site Notes: SITE CONF 04/2018


ULS License - Industrial/Business Pool, Conventional License - WQMI679 - APPLE COMPUTER INC
WQMI679 / Apple
Grant 08/17/2010
Expiration 08/17/2020
Effective 08/03/2012

ULS License - Industrial/Business Pool, Trunked License - WQUG687 - Telepath Corporation
WQUG687 / Telepath
Grant 07/02/2014
Expiration 07/02/2024
Effective 12/23/2015

My setup at the time was using DSD+ Fast Lane version, a cheapy laptop and SDR I had. And a small magmount for an antenna. It's just my go-to setup when I'm mobile some where.
Thanks again! My lay interpretation is that your system has more gain than my stock antenna on a handheld, but nothing like a base antenna.

Anyway, I suggest that Site 1 be updated as follows:
Site 1: Apple Park
FCC License: WQMI679
WQMI679 (APPLE COMPUTER INC) FCC Callsign Details
…and you can see the transmitter location here:
FCC Callsign Proximity Search: N 37.32553 W -122.01344 Range: 0.1

The coverage should be centered over the Apple Park site with minimal coverage. I'd recommend a 0.5mi circle.

And thanks again for the configuration information. Looks like 461.925 is shared between Apple and someone else. The Apple Color Code is 4 (as you have shown) and someone else's Color Code is 11.
 
Joined
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Messages
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Location
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#20
Site 2

Site 2 seems to be: ULS License - Industrial/Business Pool, Trunked License - WPWU695 - APPLE INC

This was determined by searching via the coordinates and frequency, and confirming the rest of the frequencies listed matches the license.

It does indeed seem to be WPWU695, but what RR lacks to show is the contact information being Telepath Corp. As the OP thought, it is licensed by Apple Inc, but it is also linked to Telepath.

Hopefully that helps some. I looked into site 1 but it seems to be a pretty deep rabbit hole...
I agree with Linkero regarding Site 2:
https://www.radioreference.com/apps/db/?siteId=26986

No FCC License is assigned…

Well, it's been a while since I monitored sites 1 & 2, so I dont remember 100%. They were most likely monitored while I was at the Apple campus.
How was the transmitter site determined to be in Morgan Hill?
https://www.google.com/maps/place/S...734178c7bbbb4e!8m2!3d37.211514!4d-121.6397184


I suggest the following license:
WPWU695 (APPLE INC) FCC Callsign Details

Code:
Site		WPWU695
452.175		452.175
451.775		451.775
461.5125	461.5125
463.2625	463.2625			
464.3875	464.3875			
464.7875	464.7875	
		463.4625
And here is the transmitter location:
FCC Callsign Proximity Search: N 37.33189 W -122.03219 Range: 0.1
Antenna elevation is shown as 78ft, and transmitter power is 45W. So I think the frequency match and the observed monitoring area indicate that this is a better match

I don't know if the licenses you found existed when I was searching back then either. If they are a better match, then by all means submit them.
Here is the FCC data:
ULS License - Industrial/Business Pool, Trunked License - WPWU695 - APPLE INC
Grant 12/01/2012

Anyway, I suggest that Site2 be updated as follows:
Site 2: Apple Infinite Loop
FCC License: WPWU695
WPWU695 (APPLE INC) FCC Callsign Details
…and you can see the transmitter location here:
FCC Callsign Proximity Search: N 37.33189 W -122.03219 Range: 0.1

The coverage should be centered over the Apple Park site with minimal coverage. I'd recommend a 1.0 mi circle.
 
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