SDS100/SDS200: RAS+Encrypt = Garbage

[Fidgety9996]

Uniden SDS100E FW 1.21.0

What happens:
when DMR is encrypted (enhanced 40bit encryption) AND it is RAS enabled system Uniden will play n record garbage sounds (encrypted voice)

Expected result:
Scanner showing "Encrypt, RAS" and key id (would be perfect)

 

[iscottybotty]

Wouldn’t it just… but I guess Uniden would get smashed by Motorola for breaking the algorithm, despite it being in the public domain anyway. EP and BP are proprietary by Moto.
The scanner will display “Encrypt”, it won’t show the Key ID or the privacy being used. If your quick enough, before the scanner passes by, the Caller ID and Group will be displayed. Or, if you miss it, play back the recording.
Regarding RAS specifically, it’s not encryption.
If you imagine a gate with a key coded lock, that’s what it is. No key, no access, no audio. Scanners aren’t interested in RAS as they don’t monitor the CRC header where part of the Key is passed. Same for DSDPlus. The only way to really find out if a system is RAS enabled is via DSDPlus.
The problem your having is the Enhanced Privacy. It’s nothing to do with RAS as the SDS would just ignore it.

Sadly, all that’s left to say is: EP = move on.

 

[Fidgety9996]

Its not about garbage audio but garbage ID being shown. Scanner should properly show id even with encrypt and RAS. You don't have to lecture me on that. I am not expecting to hear encrypted audio but still proper ID should be shown.

 

[Reconrider]

Wouldn’t it just… but I guess Uniden would get smashed by Motorola for breaking the algorithm

KeyID isn't the passcode to listen to the enc.
KeyID is what the system admins use to update the passcode for the enc.
So if my radio is KeyID=0001 and passcode is 1234567890 You would only see the keyid=0001 not the 1234567890

 

[Fidgety9996]

Please stop lecturing me. I already describe i want to see just KEY ID not the key value.

 

[Ubbe]

Uniden SDS100E FW 1.21.0 ......when DMR is encrypted (enhanced 40bit encryption) AND it is RAS enabled system Uniden will play n record garbage sounds (encrypted voice)

It has to be a bug. It should mute audio and continue to scan. Better report that to Uniden, and that would be Avery or the Uniden division in Australia I presume, when it is an E model?

Didn't someone mention that some new DMR systems also encrypted the data so that you couldn't see the correct TG and ID?

What UPMan said was that when the scanner detects RAS it has to ignore the checksums, which will disable the forward error correction and make the signal more suspect to bit errors and limiting the receive range as it needs a more noise free signal. DSD can probably handle RAS in a more appropriate way as they don't bother with patent and licenses.

/Ubbe

 

[KevinC]

Please stop lecturing me. I already describe i want to see just KEY ID not the key value.

I would suggest contacting Uniden Japan as they handle the European market.

Uniden contact info

 

[nessnet]

Please stop lecturing me. I already describe i want to see just KEY ID not the key value.

People come here for information - information is what you got.
Dial down the snippy....
People are just here to help.

 

[Fidgety9996]

There is no way to contact support unfortunately as far as i am concerned, they simply dont care.

 

[iscottybotty]

LoL, get gone buddy. Invest in a dongle, purchase the Fastlane membership of DSDPlus, and use that.
That will tell you if it’s RAS, won’t tell you the key though. Again, as above, DSDPlus will tell you whether it’s BP, EP/ RC4 or aes. It will NOT tell you the key ID for BP, (which is easy via the voice frames) HOWEVER, for EP/ RC4 and aes, it will display something like: alg=Ep/RC4 KeyID: 9. Thank me later.

 

[Fidgety9996]

Already using fastlane and it actually shows keyid used, that is why i would expect 600 USD sanner to show that basic data. Privacy should have nothing to do with this, especially "privacy" in BP context. This is not about the header encryption but payload only.

 

[JoeBearcat]

Exactly how does displaying the key slot used benefit the scanner user?

(not being snarky - it's an honest question)

 

[iscottybotty]

Already using fastlane and it actually shows keyid used, that is why i would expect 600 USD sanner to show that basic data. Privacy should have nothing to do with this, especially "privacy" in BP context. This is not about the header encryption but payload only.

Negative Cupcake.
DSD is a closed source program by developers who are, in reality, anonymous. They don’t care about identying if, what’s, buts and maybe’s, what they do care about though is crossing the line of proceeding any deeper.
Uniden are a corporate company and thus therefore, won’t include your wanting’s simply because it would breach the codes of Moto. And of course, Moto would defo fight them over releasing information which is their secret, and would most likely win. Uniden are more vulnerable by law-suits than DSD.
Anyway, if your not happy, return it. Simple. But for now, pop your dummy back in, put your head on your pillow, and go sleep.

 

[Fidgety9996]

@iscottybotty you are confusing two seperate topics, scanner wont breach anything especially doors that are open.
@JoeBearcat that is general question why metadata should be encrypted also. Fact that some parties communicate using common key at common times is also some kind of information, right? If that is not actually encrypted product claiming to be top-notch should show data that is not encrypted (ras is not encryption of that data just keep in mind).

 

[buddrousa]

1 Short answer @mattimc DESIGN YOUR OWN SCANNER. There is no reasonable excuse for what you want.

 

[donc13]

@iscottybotty you are confusing two seperate topics, scanner wont breach anything especially doors that are open.
@JoeBearcat that is general question why metadata should be encrypted also. Fact that some parties communicate using common key at common times is also some kind of information, right? If that is not actually encrypted product claiming to be top-notch should show data that is not encrypted (ras is not encryption of that data just keep in mind).

Here is the big question....

Why do you want to listen to encrypted channels, with or without an encrypted header?

 

[marcotor]

Yep, about the usual RR score. Bunch of lectures on "listening to encryption is illegal", which had nothing to do with the OP's post, even after the OP pointed this out multiple times, which he shouldn't have had to as the post was clear. I wonder if posters see encryption in the title, and automatically assume someone is nefarious, and begin polishing their vast knowledge for the perfect way to pontificate and scold the OP for asking a simple question - which had nothing to do with decrypting an encrypted signal.

 

[mikewazowski]

Yes, just a simple request to have the Key ID shown when receiving an encrypted call. Nothing nefarious and certainly nothing to do with breaching Motorola's codes.

As for including it on a scanner, not a big deal to me and probably not a big deal to most scanner users.

I'm going to close this thread before someone else tries to help out.