SAFE-T Migrating Toward Future P25

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KD4YGG

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June 2, 2010

TO:
Indiana County Commissioners
Indiana County Emergency Management Directors
All Motorola and EF Johnson Manufacturers Retailers

FROM:
Integrated Public Safety Commission

SUBJECT:
P25 option for all new 800 MHz radios

In the regular meeting of March 25, 2010, the Integrated Public Safety Commission (IPSC) approved new direction to agencies when considering purchase of radios intended for operation on the Hoosier SAFE-T trunked, statewide 800 MHz radio system.

During the meeting, Commission members pursued its’ earlier discussions with staff concerning the benefits of migration to P25, the anticipated costs and the impact of such a migration decision upon current and future users of the system. Concluding, for a number of technical and operational reasons, that migration to P25 technology may be the correct and only reasonable choice; the Commission modified its’ previous recommendation that user agencies should consider including the P25 option for all future purchases, to a requirement for participation on the SAFE-T system.

Specifically:
The Commission ordered that “all new orders” (placed after March 31, 2010) for 800MHz radios intended for use on the Hoosier SAFE-T trunked system include the P25 software option”. Fully understanding this bold stance may increase the initial cost of a radio and lessen the number of radios that can be purchased, the Commission deemed the requirement essential in order to prepare agencies for the eminent future P25 migration. Policy outlined in the earlier Commission letter of December 29, 2009 regarding the availability and assignment of radio ID’s remains in effect.

In further support of the Commission requirement the IPSC Network Operations Center will, prior to issuing any radio ID, request a submission of the vendor’s radio order form reflecting the P25 option. The information may be forwarded via email or by FAX.

Statewide Interoperable Communications Coordinator
Integrated Public Safety Commission
 

KLH

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So now the question is when will SAFET switch to P25?
In Knox county, everything is still analog, and I'm using a PRO-95 to monitor it all. So I guess I should start saving up now to buy a digital scanner..
 

SCPD

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Keep in mind this migration to P25 will be more than likely True P25 9600 Phase 2 if this is the case than a lot of older Digital scanners would not work Example Uniden 796D 250D Newer Unidens and GRE will work just fine just older ones so if Buying a Digital scanner get a newer version that supports Phase 2 P25 Digital
 

jerk

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Keep in mind this migration to P25 will be more than likely True P25 9600 Phase 2 if this is the case than a lot of older Digital scanners would not work Example Uniden 796D 250D Newer Unidens and GRE will work just fine just older ones so if Buying a Digital scanner get a newer version that supports Phase 2 P25 Digital

Actually, I don't think any current scanner on the market will work for Phase II, and I can't remember if the newer radios are capable of being re-flashed for it as well. Phase II is looking like some type of TDMA digital.

Most of the newer radios around here are capable of APCO 25 Phase I however.
 

GTO_04

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There is a Phase II type system out in MD or VA that is causing major problems for scanner listeners. They cannot monitor it at all when it is in Phase II mode. I don't think any current scanner can handle Phase II which is TDMA.

GTO_04
 

SCPD

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The 396 and 996 both say it will do Phase 2 in the owners manual however the 796d says it will only do phase 1 Phase 2 was mandated by the fcc to come out in the next year or so in all new systems being made and for agency’s to slowly move to the Phase 2 P25 method of communications
 

SCPD

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No scanner can do phase 2 (TDMA). The radio can not be reflashed to do it, ie XTS series. The radios would need an AMBE vocoder. XTS models only have IMBE.
 

jerk

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No scanner can do phase 2 (TDMA). The radio can not be reflashed to do it, ie XTS series. The radios would need an AMBE vocoder. XTS models only have IMBE.

Sadly or wisely... many newer in recent years Motorola radio are not capable of Phase II TDMA operation either. :roll:
 

KidClerk

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So what does this mean to the police, fire, ems, ema, etc. agencies who have acquired 800mhz radios for the existing SAFE-T system? Will these existing radios be compatible? Has millions of dollars been wasted for so little usage on these radios?
 

GTO_04

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The 396 and 996 both say it will do Phase 2 in the owners manual however the 796d says it will only do phase 1 Phase 2 was mandated by the fcc to come out in the next year or so in all new systems being made and for agency’s to slowly move to the Phase 2 P25 method of communications

I didn't realize that. Hopefully they are correct in their claims.

The changeover to Phase II must be a very expensive and time consuming project.
Just look how long it has taken to complete the rebanding!

GTO_04
 

jerk

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P25 motorola 7.X

Not tdma

Phase II is TDMA it is not yet operational, but it will be a form of TDMA and most Moto radios will not support it. The newer EF Johnson radios should be able to be flashed to it.
 

frankcastle

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So what does this mean to the police, fire, ems, ema, etc. agencies who have acquired 800mhz radios for the existing SAFE-T system? Will these existing radios be compatible? Has millions of dollars been wasted for so little usage on these radios?

This is the question I would like answered. For example, will a XTS2500 work on this Phase 2 P25?, is there software that has to be added, or is the whole radio obsolete?
 

jerk

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This is the question I would like answered. For example, will a XTS2500 work on this Phase 2 P25?, is there software that has to be added, or is the whole radio obsolete?

It would be Firmware... I don't know...
Some radios can be re-flashed, but they they won't do any analog, including the NPSC mutual aid channels.

Google XTS2500 re-flash or APCO25 options and you might find your answer. It also depends on Motorola, they might re-write the Firmware. Some early Moto radios did not and don't have the memory to do it. I think the XTS2500 has some options available. I am almost certain it will not do Phase II, only radios released in the last year have that capability. It is a hardware not software limitation.
 

kb9sxk

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It would be Firmware... I don't know...
Some radios can be re-flashed, but they they won't do any analog, including the NPSC mutual aid channels.

Google XTS2500 re-flash or APCO25 options and you might find your answer. It also depends on Motorola, they might re-write the Firmware. Some early Moto radios did not and don't have the memory to do it. I think the XTS2500 has some options available. I am almost certain it will not do Phase II, only radios released in the last year have that capability. It is a hardware not software limitation.

I happen to have 2 ERS techs in my office right now. I shall ask this of them and report back.

Resource management...:)
 

jerk

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No one at IPSC has said they are going phase II guys...

Motorola has ways of making you do it...
Look at the current system, no longer supported or upgraded by Motorola.
Live with what you have, but if you want more... we have the solution we can sell you for a mere 20 Million or so.

At least the new IP P25 system (what they are wanting to switch to) will allow MA/Com Harris P25 APCO radios to be used.
 

frankcastle

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I happen to have 2 ERS techs in my office right now. I shall ask this of them and report back.

Resource management...:)

It will be interesting to say the least. My county jumped through hoops to get the XTS2500 portables, and the XTL2500 mobiles. It will be very upsetting (to say the least) if suddenly they say, sorry, but your radios won't work any more. You'll have to buy new ones. I am anxious for your reply.
 
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