SAFET Upgrade to P25 IP

[bamx2]

There are fire departments and firefighters in Indiana who insist that P25 digital communications with the currently-used vocoders is not appropriate for fire operations. They put up a fuss when asked to use digital channels on SAFE-T and they put up a fuss when MECA went to their all-digital P25 system. In at least one county which uses SAFE-T, the fire ops talkgroups are still analog because of this resistance to using digital.

Its not just firemen in Indiana. Digital radios on the fireground is a well documented danger to firemen, espically the first generations of radios.

http://blog.tcomeng.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/phoenixfireradioreport.pdf

http://www.iafc.org/associations/4685/files/digProj_DPWGinterimReport.pdf

Fire Fighter Fatality Investigation Report F2008-09| CDC/NIOSH

Recommendation #9: First responder radio manufacturers, research/design facilities and standard setting bodies should continue research and efforts to improve radio system capabilities.
Discussion: The use of personal protective equipment and an SCBA make it difficult to communicate, with or without a radio.12,13 Several NIOSH Fire Fighter Fatality Investigation Reports have cited issues with portable radio communication, and the International Association of Fire Chiefs has released an interim report concerning possible communications problems involving digital two-way portable radios in close proximity to common fireground noise.

 

[Viper43]

As previously stated those who don't want to go digital can either go to simplex for fireground ops or their own system, thats their choice, but if they want to use SAFET they WILL have to use digital talkgroups, no ifs ands or buts.
Indy and area departments aren't having the issues they had orginaly when they went P25, occasionaly noise is heard but it's a hundred times better than it was.

V

 

[jamesa53]

What is it that no one seems to understand with the rebanding? ..... And the process is right on schedule.
V

I did not say I did not understand rebanding or the process involved.

From the RR Wiki for Project SAFE-T:

"If all goes as planned, the FCC mandated 800MHz rebanding of the State of Indiana networks will be completed in December 2011."

They better hurry if they are "right on schedule". Because 0 towers around Vigo County have been rebanded, specifically Graysville, Sullivan, Vigo 008, Vigo 038, Jasonville, Linton, Brazil, Clinton, Newport, Putnamville, etc. etc. etc.

And you think a P25 upgrade to SAFE-T will occur in March 2011 according to your post #14 .....I have some river bottom land in Vigo County I would like to sell you..........they will be lucky to have the contracts negotiated by then with the supplier.

 

[Viper43]

If you understood it then why are you complaining that "your" sites are not yet rebanded, are they any more important than the other 147 active sites? Just because your sites are not yet rebanded doesn't mean the IPSC is behind schedule either. There are over 52,000 radios and who knows how many consoles that need reprogrammed as well so holding judgement because "your" sites are not yet rebanded is a bit rediculous.
Additionally if the IPSC has to do any pogramming at sites for the P25 IP ugrade don't you think it would be smart to do that at the same time they reband the site? Seems like it would be a cost effective way to deal with things to me, sending a tech once instead of twice to pogram a site. Reprogramming 147 sites as opposed to 52,000 radios plus all the consoles will take a whole lot less time, techs could probably do two or more sites per day, and with even 4 or 5 techs it wouldn't take long to reprogram them. Then consider they have to go back and reprogram those 52,000 radios plus all the consoles again to remove the pre-reband frequencies. Again, step 1 and 3 take all the time, not the sites.

V

 

[DiGiTaLD]

Yes, they are analog. It's my understanding that the NPSPAC channels, both simplex and repeater, are supposed to be programmed in all SAFE-T radios. That doesn't mean they are actually there or that the users know how to find them. On the SAFE-T radio that I used to have, the NPSPAC channels were buried far down in Zone V.

They are supposed to be, but they most certainly are not! I've personally gone through the channels in not one, but two Montgomery County radios programmed by RA-COMM in Lafayette and can honestly say they have the single crappiest, most redundant, and worthless template I've ever seen in my life. Most of the zones have duplicate talkgroups of one another, and I'm pretty sure there's only one, yes one, of the NPSPAC channels programmed, in direct (simplex) mode only. Neither of those radios has the statewide mutual aid talkgroups, either. None.

Whoever put that template together must have been on crack.

 

[Viper43]

Speaking of the NPSPAC channels. part of the second phase is to re-band all of those repeater sites as well. I couldn't get a specific answer as to how many there are but "much of the state is covered" is what I got.
I am taking that to cover "large population areas" and "major roadways" around the state after asking a few more questions. I have heard NSPAC channels from as far away as Boone Co and Seymour, but those obviously were from repeaters. I know the whole of Marion Co is covered as the past few months some ISP 52 units were using the channels during some operations and a pursuit. The one pursuit was initiated by ISP on the SE side of the county and they worked it with IMPD and Johnson Co units. It went rather well as they got the guy.

 

[Viper43]

They are supposed to be, but they most certainly are not! I've personally gone through the channels in not one, but two Montgomery County radios programmed by RA-COMM in Lafayette and can honestly say they have the single crappiest, most redundant, and worthless template I've ever seen in my life. Most of the zones have duplicate talkgroups of one another, and I'm pretty sure there's only one, yes one, of the NPSPAC channels programmed, in direct (simplex) mode only. Neither of those radios has the statewide mutual aid talkgroups, either. None.

Whoever put that template together must have been on crack.

And think, the IPSC approved the template. It doesn't surprise me that they have just one of NPSAC channels, some I have seen have none at all. But I noticed one thing, fire/ems always seem to have the same channel, PD another, but ISP has all of them. I wonder if the IPSC has specific channels they are "allowing" departments to use, which kind of goes against what NPSAC was set up for. What if there are 3 or 4 incidents in an area and units are all on one channel it's going to be a mess!

V

 

[AK9R]

Yes, they are analog. It's my understanding that the NPSPAC channels, both simplex and repeater, are supposed to be programmed in all SAFE-T radios.

They are supposed to be, but they most certainly are not! I've personally gone through the channels in not one, but two Montgomery County radios programmed by RA-COMM in Lafayette...I'm pretty sure there's only one, yes one, of the NPSPAC channels programmed, in direct (simplex) mode only. Neither of those radios has the statewide mutual aid talkgroups, either. None.

And think, the IPSC approved the template. It doesn't surprise me that they have just one of NPSAC channels, some I have seen have none at all. But I noticed one thing, fire/ems always seem to have the same channel, PD another, but ISP has all of them. I wonder if the IPSC has specific channels they are "allowing" departments to use, which kind of goes against what NPSAC was set up for.

[sarcasm mode ON]And I thought the whole purpose of this system was to provide interoperability.[sarcasm mode OFF]

I'll take this opportunity to remind everyone, IPSC included, that we had interoperability back in the old days when most everyone was on VHF. Law enforcement had Plan A, Plan B, and ILEEN; fire/EMS has the common fireground and IHERN channels. Anybody could talk to anybody else and it didn't require a $3,500 radio or a multi-million dollar radio system to do it.

EVERY radio on SAFE-T should have the mutual aid talkgroups, both statewide and, at least, the local zone if not every zone.

EVERY radio on SAFE-T should have the NPSPAC channels, both simplex and repeater.

EVERY SAFE-T user should be trained on the proper use of the mutual and and NPSPAC channels.

EVERY SAFE-T user group should practice use of the NPSPAC channels. The users need to practice how to find the channels in their radio and they need to know how much range they will get on simplex and where the repeater coverage problems might be.

IPSC should mandate that there be NO deviation from this policy. These radios have plenty of zones and channels, so it's not like it's a capacity problem in the radio.

 

[Viper43]

Gotta agree with ya there, including the sarcasim that is what it is supposed to be but it almost seems as though some are trying to tie the hands of the users and it could hinder first responders and endanger them and the public. I feel ISP has their own talkaround capability then why are they given these "extra" channels and the rest of the state isn't.
As fo taining, I think a lot of departments just take the time to show the basics and forget the rest. It isn't just in Indiana though, it's a national problem. Even in 12 years on the fire department, driving trucks and ambulance on 3 volunteer departments we never once had any radio training. They gave you a radio and didn't show you anything except turning it on and the squelch control/volume and that was it. Even the tuck radios and ambulance radios, no training, it was all trial and error which was fun for mutual aid in other counties (we covered or were mutual aid for three other counties). Needless to say things got interesting at times.
I took an ambulance in for radio repair once and the guy gave me printouts for all the departments units which I put up in both the fire station and ambulance station. No one, even the chief knew some of the channels were in the radios. Finaly a list was put in each truck and ambulance as well as anyone who had a portable or mobile got lists. Things were much easier after that.

V

 

[KidClerk]

THANK YOU!!!!!!

Kyle

[sarcasm mode ON]And I thought the whole purpose of this system was to provide interoperability.[sarcasm mode OFF]

I'll take this opportunity to remind everyone, IPSC included, that we had interoperability back in the old days when most everyone was on VHF. Law enforcement had Plan A, Plan B, and ILEEN; fire/EMS has the common fireground and IHERN channels. Anybody could talk to anybody else and it didn't require a $3,500 radio or a multi-million dollar radio system to do it.

 

[DiGiTaLD]

Speaking of the NPSPAC channels. part of the second phase is to re-band all of those repeater sites as well.

The Indianapolis-Marion County MECA-programmed radios already have both sets of NPSPAC channels in them. Our XTS5000s at work have two zones for NPSPAC conventional, one pre-rebanding and one post-rebanding. Because of this, I scan both sets of NPSPAC channels, both rebanded and non-rebanded. I've actually heard some activity on some of the rebanded NPSPAC channels, although it was in simplex mode. Haven't heard any repeaters there yet.

 

[Viper43]

I'm wondering if you heard 52 or 51, it would make sense that during the recent changes the IPSC had the rebanded frequencies pogrammed in to avoid that having to be done again. It would make sense since I have not heard either of them on NSPAC channels since the changes in districts and so forth. Guess it is time to add the rebanded frequencies.... and maybe ScannerFreak can add them to the database for those who need them.

V

 

[DiGiTaLD]

I'm wondering if you heard 52 or 51, it would make sense that during the recent changes the IPSC had the rebanded frequencies pogrammed in to avoid that having to be done again. It would make sense since I have not heard either of them on NSPAC channels since the changes in districts and so forth. Guess it is time to add the rebanded frequencies.... and maybe ScannerFreak can add them to the database for those who need them.

V

I heard activity on rebanded ITAC4 simplex in Marion County. Don't remember if I was on the north side or south side at the time. Not sure what agency it was. It could have been anyone who already has the rebanded NPSPAC channels programmed in their radio. I know most (if not all) MECA-programmed radios already have this programming as ours do, so it was possibly users with such radios.

Again, haven't heard any repeaters there yet. Will post when I do. I have heard activity within the past couple of weeks on the non-rebanded NPSPAC repeaters, but its been hit and miss as always.

 

[Viper43]

Yeah, just more wait and see I guess. I have the 396's set up now with the rebanded frequencies so we'll see what pops up.

V

 

[DiGiTaLD]

Within the last hour, I monitored simplex fire training traffic on rebanded ITAC4 Direct in White River Township, Johnson County. I would definitely monitor both sets of NPSPAC channels, as the repeaters are still on the non-rebanded channels AFAIK.

 

[usswood]

Statewide / Common / Shared Scanner Frequencies and Radio Frequency Reference

851.01250 809.01250 WPWW367 RM 156.7 PL ICALL*Fut 800 MHz Calling - Future (rebanding; inputs licensed 2007) FMN Interop
851.51250 809.51250 WPWW367 RM 156.7 PL ITAC1*Fut 800 MHz Calling - Future (rebanding; inputs licensed 2007) FMN Interop
852.01250 810.01250 WPWW367 RM 156.7 PL ITAC2*Fut 800 MHz Calling - Future (rebanding; inputs licensed 2007) FMN Interop
852.51250 810.51250 WPWW367 RM 156.7 PL ITAC3*Fut 800 MHz Calling - Future (rebanding; inputs licensed 2007) FMN Interop
853.01250 811.01250 WPWW367 RM 156.7 PL ITAC4*Fut 800 MHz Calling - Future (rebanding; inputs licensed 2007) FMN Interop