I know that scanning public safety with apx is controversial so let’s not run that tired thread again but from a purely radio perspective and learning about radios why does an apx need a system key to monitor only and a scanner does not?
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Scanning police P25 P2 with APX vs scanner
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You do not need a system key to monitor a P25 - trunked system with an APX. It's a pain in the ass to configure but you do not need a key. However... It is possible to interfere with systems if not properly configured, this is the concern. Which is why most of us who know how to configure it, guard the knowledge, thus protecting those who protect us.
APX radios are not engineered to be "scanners" yes they can scan, but not how most Scanners scan digital systems.
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clbsquared
Member
The system key unlocks the trunking portion of the codeplug in CPS to allow you to program it. It has nothing to do with the radio scanning a trunked system.
System keys are designed to only allow authorized personnel to be able to access and make changes to the trunking parameters. A scanner is not a subscriber unit and can not register on the system, so a system key is not applicable.
This subject has been covered about 5 million times on here......
The software system key I assume is there to basically say, if you have it, the radio is a part of the system. If the radio is a part of the system, it's capable of taking up system resources, conflicting with radio ids, and transmitting on talkgroups. It is also at the same time able to be inhibited by the system, and that cannot be disabled. Essentially a promise, that this radio is a part of the system. Obviously the biggest difference between a scanner and an APX radio, is that a radio is capable of transmitting. While you may only be using the radio for receive, it's still capable to transmit. There are dangers and risks to using an APX radio for the purpose of a scanner. As it does require special programming as to what is called non affiliate scanning. Which is a way to trick the radio to not affiliate, and not transmit on the trunked system. However using this method results in the loss of some features. The APX is not designed as a scanner, and it lacks a lot of features you might want in a scanner.
As mentioned above, the Software System Key, is not actually in the radio, but simply required in order to be able to program the radio.
Opfor2
Member
Ok, Dumb question. Is the system key specific to a particular system and issued by Motorola?
Keys are specific to systems, which can be bought from moto, their are master keys and daughter keys too.
clbsquared
Member
Yes. Either by Motorola or by the system admin. Legally speaking of course.
They can be soft (file) or hard (usb) keys
Specific to a particular system, yes; issued by Motorola, no. Keys are only available from the administrator of the system you want to program into the radio, and you need a specific key for each brand of radio you intend to program (ie a key for Motorola radios, another for Harris radios, still another for Kenwood/EFJ, etc etc).
I have been researching how to scan p25 p2 with an apx using the non-affiliate method from a conventional channel, and have been chipping away at a codeplug. I have not nailed it yet. When you say "It is possible to interfere with systems if not properly configured" i don't see how that is true. To interfere with the system you have to get on the system and to do that you need a system key, which you have to hack or obtain in some other way that is not cool. You can't get on the system by mistake! Repeat: you can't get on the system without a key, correct? Therefore I don't understand why we are not sharing more freely the technique to scan without affiliating/without a system key. I don't see the big deal here. I like how complicated it is, it is a cool radio and trunking learning project. I am trying to piece it together but the threads are so interwoven with the morals of doing this the research is difficult. It's such a hot potato, there will be 100 posts in a thread about this and literally 10 of them will be about how to actually do it. There is one great post on batlab but it is old and a lot of the youtube videos are on an older version of the cps and are only for P1 so I am stuck right now, I feel like I am a check box or setting away from getting it right. In ham radio spirit I am looking for a mentor if anyone wants to pm me, I going to do this legit or not at all.
clbsquared
Member
It’s the same process for a Phase 2 system that it is for a Phase 1 system. Assuming you have the legacy software key option. You’re just selecting TDMA instead of FDMA.
I don't think you're getting the hole picture. In order to do non-affiliate scan with an APX radio on a phase II system you need to configure certain trunking parameters within CPS to make it work. The system key unlocks the trunking options in CPS. That's all it does, so yeah you need one for the system you want to listen too. However, after you load the key, if you make mistakes while configuring your radio it could attempt to affiliate with the system. So yes, you can get on a system by mistake. It has happened many times.
Keep reading and be patient, in the true ham spirt. You'll figure it out eventually. If you wanted easy programming you should have bought a Harris XG100P. No system key required and true non-affiliate scan built right into CPS.
That's not entirely correct. A "legit" copy of RPM11, or higher, requires an AAC (System Key) for every P25 trunking system that is to be programmed. L3HARRIS never intended unauthorized radios to be programmed for P25 trunking or end users to change any trunking parameters themselves.
18bravo
Member
The AP
If you like I can take a look at the code plug I have programmed many APX for NAS. I’ll just say this you shouldn’t have to mess with many parameters at all.
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It looks like there are some legal questions which may or may not pertain. If it scan be used as a scanner and not violate the law or put people in danger then what exactly is the problem? There are alot of responses, alot of smart folks on this forum. Interesting forum.
Be safe
Be safe
The problem is that programming these radios is pretty complex even for those of us who are experienced programmers doing it for a living; it's especially complicated for someone who doesn't do it often or has never done it. There are thousands of settings, and things can go wrong if the wrong choices are made. To name just a couple:
1. At best, if the radio affiliates, the system administrator can inhibit it, after which it would be no better than a paperweight.
2. At worst, if it affiliates, the radio could cause erratic operation on the system, leading to problems such as interference and/or misrouted audio (among others) for legitimate users. This could lead to someone getting hurt or killed.
On the legal front, programming a trunked system requires a system key; if this is circumvented through illicit means, it has in the past been considered as theft of services (among others, including a variety of computer crimes).
If it's done correctly, using a radio for NAS really isn't much different from using a scanner, but unless you really know what you're doing it's not worth the risk.
18bravo
Member
1. A certain program fixes that.
2. I concur
I disagree, much better than a scanner audio wise and works a hell of a lot better on simulcast systems.
2. I concur
I disagree, much better than a scanner audio wise and works a hell of a lot better on simulcast systems.
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