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Should the 160 MHz NJT PD Freqs be Deprecated

N2ZGE

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According to the DB, they appear to be active, but that is not the case. NJTRANSIT PD on VHF should be marked either deprecated or limited backup only.
 

kd2pm

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Although traffic is not as it used to be now that they are on NJICS, the licenses are still current and during special events, the frequencies can be used for local traffic. Their APX7000's are 700/800/VHF so they are always ready to resort back to VHF if need be.
 

jaymatt1978

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The rule of thumb is so long as the licenses are still active, which they are, then they should remain in the database. It is required ALL railroad police have access to 161.2050 to communicate with each other. I know railroad police in other states have moved to trunked systems, and follow these rules. A lot of frequencies you may think are inactive sudden come alive when you least expect it!!! Honestly I think the database is very clear in saying the frequencies are used as backup
 

GTR8000

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The rule of thumb is so long as the licenses are still active, which they are, then they should remain in the database.
Whose "rule of thumb" is that? It's certainly not official RRDB policy.

There are literally countless frequencies still actively licensed all over the country that haven't been used in decades. In NJ alone I guarantee that I can easily find over a thousand licensed frequencies that were long since abandoned, with absolutely no radio equipment owned or installed by those agencies, and thus zero possibility of them being used. Think of all the old low band frequencies that were popular decades ago, replaced 20-30 years ago by UHF/T-Band, and now many of those same agencies are migrating to 700/800 trunking.

The official policy is not to remove entries from the RRDB unless it can be verified that the agency in question no longer uses said frequencies, actively or for backup purposes. The status of the FCC license has absolutely nothing to do with making that determination, as many agencies operate with expired/no licenses, or have stuff licensed that hasn't been used in years.

If once-active frequencies now sit dormant 99% of the time and are for backup use only, then that can and should be noted in a reasonable manner in the RRDB.
 

N2ZGE

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GTR8000, you are absolutely correct. Since you are an admin, perhaps you can tweak the DB and mark those NJT VHF frequencies as "backup only". For anyone coming into NJ for the first time, it gives them a false impression when frequencies are listed to appear as active, when they are actually just backup only. Furthermore, every county should be looked through and all frequencies that are ONLY used for backup, should say that next to each listing. The truth is, licenses renew all the time, but when a town or agency doesn't even own the radio equipment anymore to operate on certain frequencies, then they should be removed completely.
 

GTR8000

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@N2ZGE I'm not responsible for NJ. Even if I were, asking for database changes in forum posts is not the proper procedure, the normal submission process is.

You should also note that at the admin's discretion, we may not put FOR BACKUP ONLY in every single description field, as that can cause the length of descriptions to become too long (and it's a lot of extra work). Instead we often put a note in the subcategory explaining that certain frequencies contained therein are legacy and for backup purposes only.

As far as combing through every county, feel free to do so and follow the normal submission process if you are 100% certain that something needs to be addressed. If you are not 100% certain, then leave well enough alone. "Do no harm" is the key here. It doesn't do anyone any good being OCD about getting every single frequency you feel is old removed, especially when you may not live in the area and have no direct knowledge of the status of these frequencies. Never assume that simply because an agency moved to a trunked system, they have completely abandoned their conventional frequencies.
 

jaymatt1978

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Let's back up here. First we're not talking about just any old public safety organization here, this is a railroad police department. I have no doubt you can find numerous licenses that haven't been used in years that are still llisted as active and are abandoned, but railroads are different, they have their own spectrum so

Railroads still operate on VHF so the police need to have access to VHF. I don't care what system you heard a RRPD on or anything else, Railroads operate between 160-162 so it's a sure bet the rail road POLICE still have VHF radios in there with the frequencies in question in them. I can't tell you how many times fI've heard frequencies come alive that I thought were dead. Until you can show me a picture of a NJTPD vehicle without any sort of VHF installed, I wouldn't mark ANY frequency "deprecated""


Whose "rule of thumb" is that? It's certainly not official RRDB policy.

There are literally countless frequencies still actively licensed all over the country that haven't been used in decades. In NJ alone I guarantee that I can easily find over a thousand licensed frequencies that were long since abandoned, with absolutely no radio equipment owned or installed by those agencies, and thus zero possibility of them being used. Think of all the old low band frequencies that were popular decades ago, replaced 20-30 years ago by UHF/T-Band, and now many of those same agencies are migrating to 700/800 trunking.

The official policy is not to remove entries from the RRDB unless it can be verified that the agency in question no longer uses said frequencies, actively or for backup purposes. The status of the FCC license has absolutely nothing to do with making that determination, as many agencies operate with expired/no licenses, or have stuff licensed that hasn't been used in years.

If once-active frequencies now sit dormant 99% of the time and are for backup use only, then that can and should be noted in a reasonable manner in the RRDB.
 

GTR8000

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Let's back up here. First we're not talking about just any old public safety organization here, this is a railroad police department. I have no doubt you can find numerous licenses that haven't been used in years that are still llisted as active and are abandoned, but railroads are different, they have their own spectrum so

Railroads still operate on VHF so the police need to have access to VHF. I don't care what system you heard a RRPD on or anything else, Railroads operate between 160-162 so it's a sure bet the rail road POLICE still have VHF radios in there with the frequencies in question in them. I can't tell you how many times fI've heard frequencies come alive that I thought were dead. Until you can show me a picture of a NJTPD vehicle without any sort of VHF installed, I wouldn't mark ANY frequency "deprecated""
I suggest that you go back and re-read both of my posts. Nowhere did I say or even suggest that any of these VHF railroad frequencies should be marked Deprecated or removed. Quite the opposite, in fact. I am making the broader point that we have policies and procedures in place for administering the RRDB, and those are not subject to the whims or opinions or "rules of thumb" of anyone except those who set those policies.

You made a statement saying "The rule of thumb is so long as the licenses are still active, which they are, then they should remain in the database.", and that's simply not accurate. FCC licenses are not the determining factor as to whether something remains in the database, which is what I was addressing with my reply to you. That doesn't equate to my saying "Remove everything even if it has an active license!!!" :cautious:
 

Signal-Zero

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So we circled back to doing the same as what is currently being done with the database, 12 posts later....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

jaymatt1978

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That would work with regular city county and state emergency services. it won't work with the NJTPD Rail Operations and here's why, the PD that patrols the railroads still sometimes use the VHF frequencies and not just for backup. I have heard both especially at the stations and on the trains. They also have used them to communicate with the conductors on the trains, again I have heard this with my own ears even after they went to the NICS system. So they aren't depreciated and they aren't for backup, they're limit use. People know looking at the database right now, as is, understand it.

See if I can break it down the way I and most using the database, see it, which is differently the you see it. I'm not saying right or wrong here. I'm saying we are given the same set of data and see it differently. Let's pretend you're not from the area, have and you ask to me "I want to listen to NJTPD. How do I do it?" I would say "OK they mainly operate on the NJICS system but still have access to, and sometime use their VHF Frequencies, PLUS they use VHF to communicate with towns on VHF. I KNOW for a FACT all NJTPD officers have VHF capabilities, they have different VHF frequencies beside their own, so why wouldn't they have their own too? "Backup ONLY" ISN'T ACCURATE. To me, and many in emergency communications I might add, "Backup" means if System A goes down then can we use System B. The way most of these systems work is there are times where System B works better than System A. The NJDEP being a prime example, they have access to the NJICS and the NJSP 800 MHz systems, but still use their VHF frequencies.

The database is a resource that's always changing. I really think, and I see it in the original post, you really don't know how to use the database.. Therefor in you eyes you always see it as inaccurate.. It's evident in every one of these posts. This isn't an attack, it's an observation, because it seems only you have these types of issues. I know this because I actually go into the database and look at the information you want "corrected" Then I reread your comments and I see what you're missing, but I don't see how it makes sense to everyone else and not you. I also don't see a way to satisfy what yo want. I wish I did


GTR8000, you are absolutely correct. Since you are an admin, perhaps you can tweak the DB and mark those NJT VHF frequencies as "backup only". For anyone coming into NJ for the first time, it gives them a false impression when frequencies are listed to appear as active, when they are actually just backup only. Furthermore, every county should be looked through and all frequencies that are ONLY used for backup, should say that next to each listing. The truth is, licenses renew all the time, but when a town or agency doesn't even own the radio equipment anymore to operate on certain frequencies, then they should be removed completely.
GTR8000, you are absolutely correct. Since you are an admin, perhaps you can tweak the DB and mark those NJT VHF frequencies as "backup only". For anyone coming into NJ for the first time, it gives them a false impression when frequencies are listed to appear as active, when they are actually just backup only. Furthermore, every county should be looked through and all frequencies that are ONLY used for backup, should say that next to each listing. The truth is, licenses renew all the time, but when a town or agency doesn't even own the radio equipment anymore to operate on certain frequencies, then they should be removed completely.
 
Last edited:

kd2pm

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Regardless....they are AAR frequencies and can be used by any rail entity at any time. And now that NXDN is being deployed at NJT...you will want to pay close attention to how NJTPD and NJT Rail Ops use the AAR frequencies. Perhaps its just simpler to reference them under railroad frequencies and not consider them assigned to any particular agency. You could consider putting notes that "could be used by..." so outsiders would know that they could be used but not as their primary comms.
 

N2ZGE

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Wow, this is the first I heard of NXDN coming to NJT. When is this expected to happen or is this just a rumor?

Even as Not an outsider, I get very confused as to which frequencies are "primary/regularly active" channels vs channels that "could be used sometimes and/or backup use". A great example of this is for all the South Amboy conventional frequencies. I have no clue if those are still primary active channels for when I am in that area or just backup now? Same goes for the main Fire Dispatch frequency for Woodbridge. Therefore, yes, all channels that are used rarely or local/backup should be marked accordingly.
 

kd2pm

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Rail Operations is already using NXDN locally. Have not converted everything over yet such as passenger divisions. This may have some interesting after effects since PD have APX radios that don't do NXDN.
 

N2ZGE

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Really? Which NJT rail operation is already using NXDN? I have heard this was the case in other states, but did not realize it was happening in NJ. I was on the Raritan Valley Line today with my scanner and heard the train crews loud and clear on their VHF frequencies. I hope they dont switch a thing on that line because its great hearing when they get the all clear on the radio before departing Nwk Penn.
 

RadioDitch

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NJTPD VHF frequencies remain valid fallback, and also remain in many Rail Operations portable radios. The VHF console in Penn Plaza remains at the desk. It remains as part of their emergency communications plan in the event of a major emergency. It is not depreciated.

As to use of NXDN (aka: IDAS), while NJTRO is licensed to use it, do not expect it for anything involving train operations any time soon. Expect it to remain in use only by MOW and Electric Traction. Without going into the spectrum politics, it's not going to be absolutely necessary now for any railroad to go to 6.25kHz bandwith, which would have basically necessitated digital and is the only reason it became a thing.
 
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