tactical -> EDACS vehicular repeater

[robbinsj2]

Does anyone have any familiarity with an EDACS vehicular repeater? My fire company has asked me to explore our options before we take specifics to the system manager or vendors. I've searched the M-A/COM web site without finding anything helpful.

The fire company mostly operates on a 800 MHz EDACS, but also regularly on high-band and, very soon, a Motorola UHF trunked system. (We have primary coverage in two different counties, and frequently respond as mutual aid into a third.) We invested in EDACS portables for all firefighters a couple years ago, but increasingly must switch to a tactical channel for reliable scene communications and now want the ability to patch it into our normal operations/ command talkgroup.

In addition we would also like the ability to connect 800 MHz to VHF and UHF (individually), so all our firefighters have access to the scene channel no matter where the call is. We would like this to be through the VHF and UHF mobiles, for optimal repeater access, but we may settle for less than the ideal here. An ambitious task in any event, I guessed...

1) Is there a way to interconnect any two of these apparatus-mounted radios: M/A-COM 800 MHz mobile (Orion), M/A-COM 800 MHz portable (P5100), Kenwood VHF mobile, Motorola UHF mobile (probably XTL2500)? The only combination not desired would be VHF <-> UHF.

2) If 1=no, can we connect the Orion to a Motorola portable charger mounted in the truck, for its PAC-RT functionality? (Then we can swap out VHF/UHF/800 portables in the charger to get the desired patch.)

3) If 2=yes, can we connect the Orion to multiple portable chargers, so we don't have to play musical chairs with the radios and only have to switch on PAC-RT for the radio we want?

4) Can we use any combination of the above? As in Orion to UHF mobile and a portable?

5) Are there any other field-based solutions? It can't be done at a console, since no dispatch center has all three bands' operations channels in it plus they wouldn't pick up our 800 tactical channels anyway.

TIA,

Jim

 

[robbinsj2]

A bit of a clarification: I thought PAC-RT used the portable within the charger as the local transmitter; after further research it appears to me that the local transmitter is built into the assembly and the portable may be removed and used to transmit back to the vehicle.

If this is correct then my #2 wouldn't work as far as swapping portables in the one base.

EDIT: after more Googling, stumbled upon M/A-COM's VRC Vehicular Repeater. Not a whole lot of info available in the data sheet; does anyone here have experience with it? Do you have to key up briefly and wait for a connect tone back from the VRC before you go ahead, like the Pyramid SVR-200?

 

[jungle]

Vehicular Repeaters

Have you looked at www.pyramidcomm.com ?

They make an excellent vehicle repeater basically the same design as the PAC-RT.

Also make an inband repeater to include VHF as well as 800 MHz. Working inband does require some antenna isolation but as I understand will work quite well.

Also If using the M/A Com ORION Radio they have a optional board that you can purchase to place into the Orion Radio that will actually allow you to change channels/talkgroups via your portable radio by DTMF. (Optional board described will not work if you have a ProVoice Orion because that too occupies space and only room for one board)

I have purchased the above for 800MHz EDACS but have not had time to install yet.

Get on there web site as it explains things quite well.

 

[jungle]

In reading your post a second time you mention that you operate PRIMARY on 800MHz EDACS and you "increasingly must switch to a tactical channel for reliable scene communications and now want the ability to patch it into our normal operations/ command talkgroup." Do you mean switch to a 800MHz conventional channel or stay within the EDACS system on another talkgroup?

Regarding Field deployable solution suggest you look at either the ACU-M or the NCS-C250.
www.jps.com www.ncspsc.com

I have experience with the ACU-M and it works very well. As for the NCS-C250 in reading about it the cost is much less and appears to be a solution. Only problem that I see is that to use this as a field solution the equipment that either of these are mounted in would have to be "at scene" to work .

 

[robbinsj2]

Thanks for the tips.

When I say tactical, I mean conventional simplex on our same 800 MHz portables. The trunked system isn't cutting it in these specific locations because of building construction and/or topography, but command (usually outside, sometimes on a mobile radio) usually can get the trunked system okay and must be able to scan for the dispatch talkgroup. Our tac channel is low-power enough that we knew it would be a scene-deployable system, probably installed on all our front-line apparatus.

With a new setup, one idea is to have everyone start off on the trunked system and switch to the tactical system when they lose trunked service. Theoretically no communications would be missed because the vehicular repeater would be operational from the time of the first engine's arrival. I myself would prefer to start everyone on tactical when they step off the apparatus, so they don't have to bother switching from trunk to conventional.

I saw the SVR-200 but very much dislike it. I understand why they do it, but its interface to a trunked system is no good for us. (Key up briefly on tactical, wait for the SVR to get a channel grant on the trunked side and send an acknowledgement back over tactical, then transmit again with your message.) Too confusing and slow. If everyone is on tactical as I want, it's not the end of the world if a couple messages don't make the trunked system because of a queue. The M/A-COM epeater

The ACU-M looks promising, and the NCS-C250 looks even more so. We want something simple to operate, basically tune radios to whatever channels you want and pick which of the 4 you want connected. No need for control from a portable or a dispatch center, no passing of advanced signalling, nothing fancy like that. They do want to get the three radios into a Firecom system, but fortunately I'm not assigned to that.

We're also looking at setting up PAC-RTs from the UHF and VHF mobile radios onto our 800 MHz tac channel (only one of the three of them activated at a time), but it wouldn't be quite as flexible as the above two products.

Thanks,

Jim

 

[AES-256]

For $10,000 you can get an ICRI. Select your talkgroups, set volume on your radios to mid way and flip several switches.....thats it. I use them in every day ops and have no problems with patching anyone. http://www.c-at.com/index.html

Look at this article http://www.c-at.com/PressReleases/NewJerseyICRI.htm I have seen the package being sent to NJ, it's very nice, compact and easy to operate. See if your local County Emergency Maqnagement has one.

 

[robbinsj2]

Thanks. The NCS-C250 looks most promising so far, and may even help out the anticipated Firecom issue once the UHF radios are installed.

I'm not excited about the ICRI because we're trying to get around a lack of in-building portable coverage, and the on-the-street isn't always much better. For at least the 800MHz EDACS (possibly the UHF Motorola system too, we haven't been able to do coverage testing yet) we really need to be working off the mobile radio to get the system. Plus at $10,000 it is a little cost prohibitive for our purposes.

If NJ got 21 then surely the three counties we work with got one each. It'll be interesting to see at a drill sometime, but we would need the device often (around 50% of our calls) and usually for incidents not requiring any OEM response.

If anyone has any more ideas, I'd love to hear them.

Jim

 

[AES-256]

Ok, here is another low cost option http://www.nhrc.net/interoperability.php For around 400 dollars the company will place the controller in a custom enclosure. A radio tech will still have to adjust the audio levels between the radios.

Pyramid SVR-200 http://www.pyramidcomm.com/svr200.html only puts out 600 milliwatt on 800MHz and 2 watt for UHF/VHF. Thats not a whole lot of power to penetrate concrete and steel.

Another option is the futurecom repeater http://www.mobexcom.com/ Washington D.C. Fire has over 80 of these units on their fire trucks and BC Buggies. They placed a directional antenna on each side of the vehicle and choose which antenna to use when they arrive on scene by moving a selector to driver or officer side. But at 10,000 dollars that might be more then you want to spend.

Last and final option that I can throw out there is from SyTech http://sytechcorp.com/new_site/SytechCorp/SyTechCorpXY/CDR02_pics.asp It has both fixed and mobile options.


I forgot the Grant factor, over 1 billion Dollars are up for grabs on Public Safety https://www.rkb.mipt.org/

 

[aaron315]

This may be something to look at as well.

http://www.jps.com/downloads/pdfs/ACUT_final.pdf