Talkaround / Repeater Channel question

[MFDHoward]

Hey guys,

I realized something about my department's radios, we have Channel 1 set to our FD Repeater and Channel 2 set to FD Talk-Around. If a Repeater/Talk Around button is programmed...do you even need separate channels like this?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Citywide173]

No, but it is one more thing to learn/operate. If "go to channel 2" can be done with a tactile feel of the "click" of the channel knob without having to look at the radio, would having to learn the button process, which may involve taking the radio out to look at it, be of benefit?

 

[MFDHoward]

No, but it is one more thing to learn/operate. If "go to channel 2" can be done with a tactile feel of the "click" of the channel knob without having to look at the radio, would having to learn the button process, which may involve taking the radio out to look at it, be of benefit?

That is what I thought. I just thought it would be easier because I use a APX 6000xe and the chiefs use HT1250's and the engines have CP200s and it would be easier to have a button press since 1. The CP200s have no screen and 2. None of our firefighters know what frequencies are mapped to what channels.

 

[mrdinks]

Agreed, most people are not radio geeks and have trouble turning them on. Having a separate channel helps but they will still forget what it's for. Trust me I have been down this road.

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[quarterwave]

Generally not, T/A option buttons were created to save a channel slot in the radio, it basically just tells the radio to TX on the same RX frequency already programmed in Channel X, rather than transmitting the repeater input frequency that is set for that channel normally.

I haven't seen these used very much. I think in public safety, and I suppose in all sectors, channel numbers keep people straight. Not everyone is a radio guru, some people do well to find the PTT button some days and know you press to talk and not listen....

I know in my area the rural volunteer service had until a few years ago alot of radios programmed with DIRECT (talkaround) in channel 1 and repeater in 2. This stemmed from way back, before they had a repeater and worked simplex.

So the answer is technically no, but for consistency among users and possibly diverse equipment, using it might be less than safe...or logical.

 

[Citywide173]

I don't believe the CP200's have any buttons to tether to a R/D operation, but it would increase channel capacity in the other radios.

 

[Project25_MASTR]

I don't believe the CP200's have any buttons to tether to a R/D operation, but it would increase channel capacity in the other radios.

They do.

Talk Around/Direct use the repeater output. In a lot of department setups, they'll run a couple of different simplex channels which are usually marked mobile-to-mobile (or similar) in the database but often labled TAC * or department TA. The real purpose however is to get people off the dispatch channel in instances where lots of traffic is going on that doesn't need to go through dispatch.

 

[Citywide173]

They do.

Talk Around/Direct use the repeater output. In a lot of department setups, they'll run a couple of different simplex channels which are usually marked mobile-to-mobile (or similar) in the database but often labled TAC * or department TA. The real purpose however is to get people off the dispatch channel in instances where lots of traffic is going on that doesn't need to go through dispatch.

He said they are using CP200s without the screen. Where are the buttons located?

 

[MFDHoward]

He said they are using CP200s without the screen. Where are the buttons located?

There are two under the PTT button. Last time I programmed a CP200 which was like 2013-2014.

They do.

Talk Around/Direct use the repeater output. In a lot of department setups, they'll run a couple of different simplex channels which are usually marked mobile-to-mobile (or similar) in the database but often labled TAC * or department TA. The real purpose however is to get people off the dispatch channel in instances where lots of traffic is going on that doesn't need to go through dispatch.

My FD has Fireground 1....Fire Dept TA and a Fire Dept Rptr Channel and they still don't move to a TA or FG channel during a structure fire...its a mess.

 

[Citywide173]

There are two under the PTT button. Last time I programmed a CP200 which was like 2013-2014.

That makes sense, I had forgotten about side buttons. Just keep in mind that they may be difficult to get to with firefighting gloves on.

 

[riveter]

Generally not, T/A option buttons were created to save a channel slot in the radio, it basically just tells the radio to TX on the same RX frequency already programmed in Channel X, rather than transmitting the repeater input frequency that is set for that channel normally.

I haven't seen these used very much. I think in public safety, and I suppose in all sectors, channel numbers keep people straight. Not everyone is a radio guru, some people do well to find the PTT button some days and know you press to talk and not listen....

I know in my area the rural volunteer service had until a few years ago alot of radios programmed with DIRECT (talkaround) in channel 1 and repeater in 2. This stemmed from way back, before they had a repeater and worked simplex.

So the answer is technically no, but for consistency among users and possibly diverse equipment, using it might be less than safe...or logical.

Same thoughts. I have TA set up to a menu button on my portable... as a field radio operator not typically wearing heavy protective gear and very accustomed to using all the functions of my radio daily. I wouldn't recommend little buttons being set up for TA on a radio used by day-to-day firefighters.

 

[SteveC0625]

The T/A concept is virtually impossible to teach to non-radio people. They don't get it; they don't want to get it. The channel concept they do get. Unless you're really hurting for channel slots, forget about T/A.

 

[Project25_MASTR]

The T/A concept is virtually impossible to teach to non-radio people. They don't get it; they don't want to get it. The channel concept they do get. Unless you're really hurting for channel slots, forget about T/A.

I think that's why the term Direct is a little more accurate. Direct, radio to radio not radio to repeater.

Talk around implies completely going around the repeater, not just bypassing it on the same frequency.

But as stated, unless you are hanging out with guys know know radios...KISS.

 

[N4KVE]

Assign the T/A, or direct freq to a ch #, not a button. For the non radio types, it's easier to say go to CH 1 for repeater use, & go to CH 2 for T/A use.

 

[mdulrich]

At my FD we put our direct frequency in the Channel 16 spot. Much easier to spin the knob to the end than make one click with gloved hands. This wasn't the original programming, but was done after Channel 2 was missed.

Mike

 

[SteveC0625]

I think that's why the term Direct is a little more accurate. Direct, radio to radio not radio to repeater.

Talk around implies completely going around the repeater, not just bypassing it on the same frequency.

But as stated, unless you are hanging out with guys know know radios...KISS.

While "direct" may be more accurate from some points of view, Talk Around is Motorola's name for the function. Since we're talking in the Motorola sub-forum, it is what it is. Tossing both terms into the same conversation will only confuse and befuddle the uninformed.

"Direct radio to radio" however is certainly a better way to describe the function to the non-radio folk. When I taught rookie dispatchers about our radio systems, I always used simple drawings on a white board to fully describe these things. That worked with my dispatch students, but may not work so well with other groups, like firefighters and police officers. It's not their primary interest and they gloss over it.

I have some four channel radios that I've turned into 6 channel ones by enabling T/A on both of our repeater channels. That's great for me, but convincing others to bypass the repeater by switching channels (let alone use a T/A button) is mostly a hopeless cause, at least on the EMS side. Some of the fire guys get it, but don't use it effectively. It's just not in their line of sight.

 

[Project25_MASTR]

While "direct" may be more accurate from some points of view, Talk Around is Motorola's name for the function. Since we're talking in the Motorola sub-forum, it is what it is. Tossing both terms into the same conversation will only confuse and befuddle the uninformed.

Motorola actually used the terms direct and talk around interchangeably.

Direct was often found in PS equipment (Saber/Spectra/Astro/Astro25/Maratrac)

https://vimeo.com/147499851

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[quarterwave]

The T/A concept is virtually impossible to teach to non-radio people. They don't get it; they don't want to get it. The channel concept they do get. Unless you're really hurting for channel slots, forget about T/A.

Absolutely right. The local Sheriff's previous UHF system...T/A was programmed and no one knew how to use it...cars would go to it and chat, cover up the dispatch (if you were nearby) and seem clueless to the fact they were not on a "Tactical" channel even though they had a Tactical Repeater and T/A that no one ever used either. All the while, the radio shop had set them up with a car -to -car specific simplex channel and the T/A was at the end of the list and really just a back up in case all else failed.

 

[eportel6607]

We have found that T/A is nothing more than mass confusion for all non-radio folks. Even for radio folks that understand it, it really isn't that useful. Many folks don't understand the concept. If you are going to use T/A I would suggest setting it up as a channel not using the T/A button if the radio offers one. A lot of radios don't offer this button and for the sake of consistency, programming it as a channel makes the T/A "feature" universal regardless of what radio is being used.

I have eliminated the T/A from our system completely because if you use the T/A while the repeater is active there will be transmitter collisions unless the field radio users understand that they are actually transmitting on the SAME frequency as the repeater and not the "input" frequency of the repeater. So users that are aware that they can transmit while the repeater tail is present...when using the repeater normally, shouldn't be doing this while in T/A mode.
We simply trained out people, when the repeater doesn't come back...when you don't hear the repeater's tail...the repeater is not working. Therefore switch to the TAC/Car2Car channel. Simple. This way the T/A doesn't existing and all the problems associated with T/A usage goes away.

We have statement in our configuration for system setups that states:

Special Note: Although the use of a Talk-Around channel would allow a method of bypassing the repeater or network nodes (if the system/repeater were to not function due to a power failure or the like), this option is discouraged as it causes confusion and over complicates the system. Especially in a multi-zone Category 3 system. A better solution is to license a separate simplex frequency (LBF) for all communications that may not be suitable for the repeater channel(s). This channel should also be designated as the “go to” channel in the event the repeater channel(s) isn’t working.