Through the roof vehicle antennas for TK-7180H and TK-8180H

[762mm]

Hello,

I am planning on installing two Kenwood mobile radios (UHF and a VHF : the 8180H and the 7180H) in my Ford Expedition truck and was wondering what would be the best through the roof antenna type for such a setup. I have looked on Amazon and cannot find any through the roof antennas that have good reviews. Also, being in Canada, our Amazon selection sucks (like too many other things under our current regime, but I digress). I looked on Aliexpress and their offerings are few and of dubious origin/quality, as can be expected.

Preferably, I would like one antenna that can do both bands reasonably well with good range. I know about SWR, but have never tuned an antenna yet. Also, is there some sort of a coupler or A/B switch that would allow connecting two radios to a single car roof antenna? Is this even feasible, or is it likely to cause an issue?


I will be doing the work myself, so a straight forward solution would be best.

Thank you and I'm looking forward to your input.

 

[mmckenna]

Hello,

I am planning on installing two Kenwood mobile radios (UHF and a VHF : the 8180H and the 7180H) in my Ford Expedition truck and was wondering what would be the best through the roof antenna type for such a setup. I have looked on Amazon and cannot find any through the roof antennas that have good reviews.

The solution that a professional would use would be a name brand NMO type mount permanently mounted through the roof. If you are serious about doing this right and making it look professional, you'll want to do the same.

Don't do magnetic mounts, trunk lip brackets, or brackets off the fender.

I use Larsen NMO mounts. I'll provide links for dealers in the USA, but these are extremely common products and you'll have no issue finding them in Canada.

Also, being in Canada, our Amazon selection sucks (like too many other things under our current regime, but I digress). I looked on Aliexpress and their offerings are few and of dubious origin/quality, as can be expected.

You can find these products on Amazon.

I would NEVER buy them from Aliexpress. If you are going to drill a hole in a perfectly good vehicle, do not buy the cheapest Chinese antenna mount you can find. Do it right the first time.

Preferably, I would like one antenna that can do both bands reasonably well with good range. I know about SWR, but have never tuned an antenna yet. Also, is there some sort of a coupler or A/B switch that would allow connecting two radios to a single car roof antenna? Is this even feasible, or is it likely to cause an issue?

Two separate antennas will work better, but you can use a diplexer to combine the two radios into one dual band antenna.

I will be doing the work myself, so a straight forward solution would be best.

Not too difficult to do, and there's lots of public safety users using Ford Expeditions. You will need a proper hole saw to do this, and they are usually not the kind you'll find at the hardware store.

Thank you and I'm looking forward to your input.

See below….

 

[mmckenna]

Here are some NMO permanent mounts that would be suitable:

Amazon.com: Larsen Original NMO-K 3/4'' Permanent Hole Mount with 17' RG58A/U Cable and UHF Male PL259 Connector : Electronics

Buy Larsen Original NMO-K 3/4'' Permanent Hole Mount with 17' RG58A/U Cable and UHF Male PL259 Connector: Connectors & Adapters - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases

www.amazon.com

Larsen NMOK - NMO 3/4" Hole Mounts PL-259

Manufacturer: Radiall Larsen; Description: The Larsen NMOK vehicle roof mount antenna installation hardware kit is a NMO mount for Motorola-style mobile

theantennafarm.com

Larsen NMOKHFUD - NMO 3/4 Hole Mount Other

Manufacturer: Radiall Larsen; Description: High Frequency, Dual Shielded. 3/4" Permanent Hole Mount. For standard vehicle roof mount antenna installation.For

theantennafarm.com

Stick with Larsen, Laird or PC Tel mounts. Don't use any other brands. Do not use Tram, Browning or any of the hammy/hobby oriented brands. You don't want to use cheap mounts when drilling a hole in your roof. Even if it saves you a few bucks.


Separate VHF and UHF antennas give you more options and flexibility. You can choose the right antenna for your use case. I'd recommend going this route:

Quarter wave antennas permanently mounted on the roof of a vehicle will give you really good performance. They also provide a lot of useable bandwidth (work well over more spectrum). Good 1/4 wave antennas are also relatively inexpensive.

NMO mounts are the de facto standard in the industry, so when you install an NMO mount, you can choose NMO mount antennas from other manufacturers. I'd recommend Larsen or EM Wave:

For the 7180:
These two antennas are field tunable, which means you'll need to cut them to length. Since we don't know what radio service you'll be using these on, these are the generic recommendation. If you tell us what radio service/frequencies you are licensed to transmit on, we can make some more focused recommendations:

Larsen NMOWBQB140 140-300 MHz Tunable 1/4 Wave Mobile Two Way Radio Antenna - Spring Base - NMO

Larsen NMOWBQB140 140-300 MHz Tunable 1/4 Wave Mobile Two Way Radio Antenna - Spring Base - NMO

theantennafarm.com

EM Wave EM-M10001 108-520 MHz Tunable, VHF UHF Broad Band Quarter-Wave Mobile Antenna

EM Wave EM-M10001 108-520 MHz Tunable, VHF UHF Broad Band Quarter-Wave Mobile Antenna

theantennafarm.com

 

[mmckenna]

For the 8180:

EM Wave EM-M10001 108-520 MHz Tunable, VHF UHF Broad Band Quarter-Wave Mobile Antenna

EM Wave EM-M10001 108-520 MHz Tunable, VHF UHF Broad Band Quarter-Wave Mobile Antenna

theantennafarm.com

Larsen NMOQC 136-512 MHz Field Tunable Two Way Radio Antenna NMO Mount

Larsen NMOQC 136-512 MHz Field Tunable Two Way Radio Antenna

theantennafarm.com

The base design on the Larsen and EM Wave I linked to have excellent sealing design, which is what you want.

The antenna is the most important part of your radio system, so don't go cheap on the antennas.


There are higher gain antennas, which will focus the radiated energy more towards the horizon. Out in the flatland provinces, those might be a good choice. If you are in BC or mountainous areas of other provinces, the lower gain 1/4 wave antennas can actually work better.

But there's a trade off:
Higher gain antennas focus more power at the horizon, which will get you a bit more range, but the higher gain antennas have less useable bandwidth, so you may actually lose some performance.

Lower gain antennas, like the 1/4 wave type, have a more globe like radiation pattern, and that can be beneficial in the mountains or large cities where repeaters may be well above you. The focus less power at the horizon, but have much more useable bandwidth.



If you want to do a dual band antenna, or one antenna for both radios, we'd need to know what portions of VHF and UHF you are licensed for. That'll dictate which antenna. But here are some examples:

This is a pretty good antenna, I ran one of these for year on the amateur radio bands:

Larsen NMO2/70SH Premium Larsen 2m/70cm Amateur Ham Radio Antenna Short Dual Band

Larsen NMO2/70SH Premium Larsen 2m/70cm Amateur Ham Radio Antenna Short Dual Band

theantennafarm.com

If you are a commercial radio user, you'd want one designed for the commercial portions of the VHF and UHF bands:

Larsen NMO150/450/758 Tri-band Mobile Antenna covers 150-174, 430-520 & 750-870, 100 Watts, Length 16.5 in, NMO Mount, Spring Base, Solid Black

Larsen NMO150/450/758 Tri-band Mobile Antenna covers 150-174, 430-520 & 750-870, 100 Watts, Length 16.5 in, NMO Mount

theantennafarm.com

To run those dual band antennas into two separate radios, you need to use a diplexer. That will combine the two radios into one antenna feed:

Comet CF-416B Duplexer 1.3-170MHz / 350-540MHz

Manufacturer: NCG Comet; Model #: CF-4166B; Duplexer; Band Pass: 1.3-170MHz350-540MHz; Insertion Loss: 0.15dB0.25dB; Maximum Power (Watts): 1.3-170MHz 800W

theantennafarm.com

 

[mmckenna]

You need to drill the hole. It needs to be 3/4". You do not want to use a hole saw designed for wood on the roof of your SUV. That risks tearing up the sheet metal and making a mess.

I use one of these:

Laird TE Connectivity HS34 3/4" NMO X-ACT Hole Saw to 1/8" Depth Safe Cutting

Manufacturer: TE Connectivity; 3/4" Hole Saw. X-ACT hole saw cuts a 3/4" hole x Depth 1/8"; Warranty: 5 Year

theantennafarm.com

Expensive, but I do enough that it pays off. It won't drill too deep and hit the headliner. It's the right tool to use, but the cost is kind of hard to justify if you are only doing one or two holes.

You can have a radio shop do the antenna install for you. That might make sense rather than buying the hole saw yourself. Plus a good radio shop will tune the antennas for you, install the connectors on the coax, etc. That can be worth the cost….


If you do want to tackle this yourself, and you do not want to spend the money on the professional hole saw, I've used one of these in a jam:

Milwaukee 3/4 in. SHOCKWAVE IMPACT DUTY Hole Saw 49-56-9805 - The Home Depot

Designed with a robust 1/4 in. quick change hex shank, Milwaukee Shockwave Impact Duty Thin Wall Hole Saws give professionals a hole making solution to use with impact drivers. Utilizing a thin wall, 8 TPI design, Thin Wall Hole Saws deliver a burr-free cut up to 40% faster than standard...

www.homedepot.com

It does not have the depth limiting feature, so make sure you are careful.


You also need to think through -where- you install the antennas.

The antennas want to see at least 1/4 wavelength of ground plane (metal) directly under the antenna. So for your VHF antenna, you want at least 19" of metal in all directions under the mount. It does not have to be in the center of the roof, but it needs to be at least 19" in from any edge.
On the UHF side, you need at least 7" or 8" of metal under the antenna.
If you do the dual band antenna, then you want at least 19"….

Usually people will put them down the center line. Doesn't have to be, but it's aesthetically pleasing for some.

You also need some spacing between the two antennas if you go with separate antennas. I'd recommend at least 2 feet or more between them.

You don't need to remove the headliner to install these, they will install from the outside. A few simple hand tools are all you need.

Usually you can pull the weather stripping off above the door and you can see above the headliner. Just drill the hole and fish the cable over to the side and grab it. Route it between the roof and any side airbags. Route the cable down the pillar behind the door and under the trim to the radio. Cut the cable to length (leave a few inches of slack) and install the connector.

The 1/4 wave antennas can usually be tuned pretty well by cutting the whip to the length that is listed on the "cut chart" included with the antenna. The 1/4 wave antennas have a lot of bandwidth, so even though it's not exact, it will get you close enough to work very well.

If you really want to check SWR, you'll need a suitable SWR meter or a NanoVNA type tool to do that. We can leave that for another thread.


Do it right the first time with quality components and you'll never regret it. I'd never do anything but that on my own vehicles or the ones at work.


Don't forget the power for the radios. + directly off the battery. Negative off a grounding point adjacent to the radio. But that's a whole other subject.

 

[kayn1n32008]

Hello,

I am planning on installing two Kenwood mobile radios (UHF and a VHF : the 8180H and the 7180H) in my Ford Expedition truck and was wondering what would be the best through the roof antenna type for such a setup. I have looked on Amazon and cannot find any through the roof antennas that have good reviews. Also, being in Canada, our Amazon selection sucks (like too many other things under our current regime, but I digress). I looked on Aliexpress and their offerings are few and of dubious origin/quality, as can be expected.

Preferably, I would like one antenna that can do both bands reasonably well with good range. I know about SWR, but have never tuned an antenna yet. Also, is there some sort of a coupler or A/B switch that would allow connecting two radios to a single car roof antenna? Is this even feasible, or is it likely to cause an issue?


I will be doing the work myself, so a straight forward solution would be best.

Thank you and I'm looking forward to your input.

What are your use case for the radios? Ham radio? Commercial? For VHF this will make a huge difference on the antenna I would recommend. What part of the country are you in? Prairies of Alberta, Saskatchewan or Manitoba? Mountains of BC? Narrowing down your location and the highest and lowest frequency you will be using on VHF will definitely influence what I recommend for antenna. What @mmckenna said though is all spot on advice you should take seriously.

 

[mrweather]

If the OP is looking for "local" source of Larsen products, Radioworld (Toronto) or Radioworld Central (Calgary) sells them.

That is all I use on my mobile installs.

 

[762mm]

Wow, that's a whole more info that I was expecting. It's a gold mine. Thank you very much !!!

To clarify, I am licensed for commercial UHF radio in the 410-420 MHz range, for work purposes (I manage a public safety department). I wish to install a UHF that's tuned to our two repeaters and simplex channels, so that I can be in communication with our central in times of emergencies, phones being down, etc. I have a portable 5W Kenwood radio, but it is pretty useless outside of the town where I work.

The VHF is mostly for weather stations, listening to some HAM stations, marine channels, etc. The VHF radio is more of an afterthought, in case I need to communicate with other departments who are on VHF in times of need, etc. I've got a bunch of good VHF mobiles and the truck has room for it, so why not.

The truck is an SSV package (ex-police) and already had some holes in the roof that I had to fill with automotive glass adhesive when I bought it, so getting holes in it shouldn't be a problem. I have a bunch of Milwaukee hole saws for sheet metal already. When I get all the parts and the weather cooperates, it's gonna be "drill baby, drill" time!

The terrain is mostly suburban and mostly flat, with few tall buildings and a few small hills here and there. There are boulevards, highways, overpasses and a 1-mile long bridge in the way that goes across a local lake. A pretty typical US / Canadian suburban setting.

.

 

[mmckenna]

Wow, that's a whole more info that I was expecting. It's a gold mine. Thank you very much !!!

To clarify, I am licensed for commercial UHF radio in the 410-420 MHz range, for work purposes (I manage a public safety department). I wish to install a UHF that's tuned to our two repeaters and simplex channels, so that I can be in communication with our central in times of emergencies, phones being down, etc. I have a portable 5W Kenwood radio, but it is pretty useless outside of the town where I work.

OK, so that means the 'field tunable' antennas I linked to are what you want.

The mobiles will give you some more range over a portable outside the vehicle, but the actual range will depend on the repeater system.

The VHF is mostly for weather stations, listening to some HAM stations, marine channels, etc. The VHF radio is more of an afterthought, in case I need to communicate with other departments who are on VHF in times of need, etc. I've got a bunch of good VHF mobiles and the truck has room for it, so why not.

Sure. So the amateur radio frequencies start at 144 and the marine/weather frequencies are 163. That's a good application for a 1/4 wave antenna as it has plenty of bandwidth to give you good performance across that range, and then some.

The truck is an SSV package (ex-police) and already had some holes in the roof that I had to fill with automotive glass adhesive when I bought it, so getting holes in it shouldn't be a problem. I have a bunch of Milwaukee hole saws for sheet metal already. When I get all the parts and the weather cooperates, it's gonna be "drill baby, drill" time!

The terrain is mostly suburban and mostly flat, with few tall buildings and a few small hills here and there. There are boulevards, highways, overpasses and a 1-mile long bridge in the way that goes across a local lake. A pretty typical US / Canadian suburban setting.

.

Those antennas will be fine. You can go to a higher gain antenna if you want, but it probably won't make a huge difference in range. Usually you can look at what the public safety agencies use around you (or on your own departments vehicles) to get a good idea of what works well in that environment.

Bigger issue for some is the overall height. If you part your vehicle in a garage, or go into parking garages, drive throughs (Timmy's!!!) or the like, the shorter antennas are ideal. Also good for low tree branches.

Higher gain antenna are longer, will hit garages, drive throughs (Timmy's!!!) or tree branches more often. Plus it really makes the vehicle stand out.

 

[mmckenna]

Earlier, you talked about using a single antenna for both radios.

The commercially available dual and triple band antennas won't cover down to 410MHz. So you really need the two separate antennas. Since your ride sounds like it already has the holes in place, that makes it easy.

Ultimately it's cheaper, the dual band antennas (if they made one that worked down here) plus the diplexers, gets pretty expensive. Having two separate antennas really works better and gives you more flexibility.