Town of Vernon Updates

[y10kiscoming]

I noticed a bunch of Tolland County updates today to the Town of Vernon...

What bugs me is that all of the frequencies in yellow (the newly added ones) are also a part of the "Vernon Board of Education" LTR system.

Are people simply hearing the "home channel" of a talkgroup only (which tends to happen on infrequently used systems) and reporting it to RR as conventional? Or is Vernon using these frequencies both trunked and conventionally? (my guess is no)

Does anyone in the listening area have an LTR capable scanner to post some talkgroups for the system? Maybe that would help avoid this confusion. Also, i'm wondering who labeled it as Board of Ed? It appears to be used by the entire town. The best time to listen to it from my own personal experience is before noon.

-Mark

 

[andy404ns]

I see what you're saying. I programmed the new frequencies into a conventional system and have been checking them. The new ones click on and off every now and then, much like Windsor and East Windsor do when programmed as conventional... This leads me to believe they are indeed part of the LTR and are not used for conventional. My scanner does have LTR capabilities and I have programmed the so-called Vernon BOE system, although the missing frequencies and gaps in the LCN's are ominous. I'll be monitoring the waves and will post back with more information if I hear anything on the LTR system. I do have a question since you live in Tolland County. Am I correct in thinking that Fire Dispatching is done county wide on 33.8000 low band? So when dispatching, do they say something like "Vernon Truck 3 respond to XXXXX" ? I'm just wondering how the system works. Thanks. Andy

 

[slammed]

I am still learning about all this but the freqs you are talking about I had them programed in my pro97 and all I ever got was dead key ups?

 

[y10kiscoming]

I see what you're saying. I programmed the new frequencies into a conventional system and have been checking them. The new ones click on and off every now and then, much like Windsor and East Windsor do when programmed as conventional... This leads me to believe they are indeed part of the LTR and are not used for conventional. My scanner does have LTR capabilities and I have programmed the so-called Vernon BOE system, although the missing frequencies and gaps in the LCN's are ominous. I'll be monitoring the waves and will post back with more information if I hear anything on the LTR system. I do have a question since you live in Tolland County. Am I correct in thinking that Fire Dispatching is done county wide on 33.8000 low band? So when dispatching, do they say something like "Vernon Truck 3 respond to XXXXX" ? I'm just wondering how the system works. Thanks. Andy

Cool, thanks! The best time to listen to the Vernon LTR system is in the morning.

And yes, 33.80 is the dispatch frequency for Tolland County Mutual Aid. It is also repeated on 152.0075 and on 153.755 if you are in Ellington.

They use tone dispatch. The idea is that all the voulunteers get a pager. The tones "open up" the pager and the person hears the dispatch. Different tones, different people hear the message. Generally you will hear:
[TONE A]
[TONE B]
[REPEAT ABOVE FOR ALL UNITS YOU WANT] (for example, ambulance, fd, whatever and for all towns you want... for example if its a mutual aid call)
TN signal 23 the Vernon ambulance, 69 the rockville medic. 123 Main Street. elderly female code 4 code 6.
[wait; call is repeated]
(23=emergency, 69=special apparatus.... 4=cardiac distress and 6=respiratory distress. i have a list of all the codes but i havent posted it yet because ive been trying to verify as many as possible.)

Generally the call is then repeated on 33.44 (repeated on 460.3875 in Vernon) without the tones.

I suggest giving it a listen. Sometimes its very busy, sometimes its very quiet. Also, if you hear the dispatcher say "switch to 78" or "signal 60 33.78" that means change to the frequency 33.78, which is the alternate operations freq (33.44 being primary)

If you have any other questions, feel free to ask. Been scanning Vernon and Tolland county for 10 years now.

-Mark

 

[y10kiscoming]

I am still learning about all this but the freqs you are talking about I had them programed in my pro97 and all I ever got was dead key ups?

You're hearing the LTR data bursts. This is normal. They happen about every 10 seconds on a Regular LTR system and about every second on a Passport system (such as Marcus's)

Since you have a Pro-97, you should be able to program the LTR system into it. Check the manual on how to do this.

For some very technically detailed information about LTR, check this site:
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cach...r.com/bpetrow/ltr.htm+&hl=en&client=firefox-a

I will also suggest that you get programming software and a cable... it makes programming a scanner sooo much eaiser... even on my Pro-79!

-Mark

 

[clyde]

Vernon LTR system currently used only by the Board of Ed. Some frqs in the LTR system are also used by the various town departments in the conventional mode. 33.8 is used as a dispatch frq
for Tolland Cty.

 

[y10kiscoming]

Vernon LTR system currently used only by the Board of Ed. Some frqs in the LTR system are also used by the various town departments in the conventional mode. 33.8 is used as a dispatch frq
for Tolland Cty.

Thats just weird, bizzare, and annoying.

Not meant to offend anyone, but this seems very illogical. This multiple use of frequencies has the possibility of causing major communications problems. I hope they fix it before that happens.

Don't believe me? My proof: 462.625 during the Vernon Fireworks.

Case closed.

-Mark

 

[andy404ns]

Mark - I kept my Trunk ID Logger program up all day and received about 22 hits from the same talk group from the Vernon BOE LTR system. The ID is 0-01-020. I only actually heard about three transmissions as I was out of the house for the others. However, they all sounded to be either town services or a small business that does heating/electrical stuff. I definitely didn't hear any public safety stuff going on. Obviously the actual Board of Ed stuff wouldnt be transmitting at all this week due to the holiday. I'll check that out when the kids start school again. So for now, I would have to say that public safety in Vernon is not on that LTR trunked system at this time. Andy

 

[cg]

I am fairly certain that is BOE traffic. The maintanence staff and other non teacher positions still work during the week (and all summer). I heard several references to schools on that ID (it was the only one I heard as well)chris

 

[dittrimd]

As I understand it the LTR system was set up primarily for the town agencies like BOE and will encorporate more agencies like Public Works as they purchase more LTR capable radios. The PD and FD will have talk groups for admin traffic which will allow the FD to vacate the GMRS repeater they currently use as thier channel 3. They do not have plans to utilize this system for emergencies. I do believe if you look at the frequencies for their trunked system they have utilized at least one of them for Public Safety. The Vernon Fox Hill repeater that repeats 33.44 which is Tolland County's primary dispatch frequency used to be 453.9875 wide band and is now 460/465.3875 narrow band. It was changed over last year. They had some initial problems with PLs and have now worked them out.

 

[y10kiscoming]

As I understand it the LTR system was set up primarily for the town agencies like BOE and will encorporate more agencies like Public Works as they purchase more LTR capable radios. The PD and FD will have talk groups for admin traffic which will allow the FD to vacate the GMRS repeater they currently use as thier channel 3.
<snip>

Why would they move public works to a new frequency? DPW can already communicate with the PD ("Station 3")

Vacate the GMRS repeater... does this mean parks and town services will also move to the LTR system? I hope they add more frequencies if they plan on doing this.

And about the FD... the LTR frequencies are licensed to WPWX946 as IG (Business Conventional) whereas the new FD frequencies are licensed to WQAY713 as YW (Public Safety Trunked). Does this mean the FD is planning a trunked system as well? Or will they simple use some of those frequencies for the LTR system. I believe both are licensed to the Town of Vernon.

My other problem with the new FD frequencies is 460.3375. Wayy too much bleed over from PD 460.325. Is 460.325 NFM? I seriously hope they dont use 460.3375 until its fixed.

Me needs to get an LTR trunking scanner.

-Mark

 

[dittrimd]

From what I have heard they are going to move every non emergency town agency to the LTR system as they purchase more radios. So anyone using the GMRS repeater with be eventually switching over. We all know how quickly governments work on spending money so this could take some time.

According to some users that I have spoken with, the LTR system currently can take some time to get a frequency assigned once you key up a radio. This does not work for public safety so they are not planning to switch. I am not sure what the actual problem is since I have not operated on their system. I find it hard to believe that they are already out or RF on their system.

As for their licensing I am not sure what is going on. I know that they are using one of the frequencies from thier trunked license for conventional use which I have been told is acceptable. I expect that they will add more frequencies to their LTR system as they put more users on it.

I monitor the 460.3875 frequency from East Hartford and the audio quality has significantly diminish from the old 453.9875 frequency. I am not sure if they switched radios when they switched frequencies but it is not nearly as good quality.

 

[y10kiscoming]

From what I have heard they are going to move every non emergency town agency to the LTR system as they purchase more radios. So anyone using the GMRS repeater with be eventually switching over. We all know how quickly governments work on spending money so this could take some time.

So what about VPD using the GMRS repeater? Also, does VPD have access to the LTR system yet? (They would need it if, for example, Animal Control is moved over).

According to some users that I have spoken with, the LTR system currently can take some time to get a frequency assigned once you key up a radio. This does not work for public safety so they are not planning to switch. I am not sure what the actual problem is since I have not operated on their system. I find it hard to believe that they are already out or RF on their system.

I'm guessing its a setup issue and not a RF issue, unless it's possible that the radios being used simply aren't powerful enough? I know the max ERP is 75 watts, but the LTR system seems difficult for me to pick up most of the time.

As for their licensing I am not sure what is going on. I know that they are using one of the frequencies from thier trunked license for conventional use which I have been told is acceptable. I expect that they will add more frequencies to their LTR system as they put more users on it.

I hope so too.

I monitor the 460.3875 frequency from East Hartford and the audio quality has significantly diminish from the old 453.9875 frequency. I am not sure if they switched radios when they switched frequencies but it is not nearly as good quality.

I monitor it too and I would have to agree.

While I am on the topic, I assume 453.9875 is no longer used at all?

And as followup questions:

Is 452.525 (from call WNFA251) used at all? I have never heard it used.

Is 33.48 (from the same call) used at all? I know 33.78 gets used sometimes.

-Mark

 

[CT22]

The audio quality on 460.3875 might be due to a switch to narrowband operation. If you have a newer scanner try switching it to NFM, it should raise the audio level a little. If you what what type of radios they use (Moto or Kenwood?) and you have one yourself try enabling companding or Xpand it might help out as well.

 

[y10kiscoming]

The audio quality on 460.3875 might be due to a switch to narrowband operation. If you have a newer scanner try switching it to NFM, it should raise the audio level a little. If you what what type of radios they use (Moto or Kenwood?) and you have one yourself try enabling companding or Xpand it might help out as well.

Good call. All of the new 460.X frequencies are licensed under WQAY713 with 11K2F3E emission for narrowband FM voice on 12.5khz channels.

Unfortunately with my PRO-41 doing the bulk of my Vernon scanning, I do not have the NFM option and will just have to deal with it.

-Mark

 

[clyde]

33.48 is used primarily for drills in Vernon FD. VFD uses a mix of Midland, Vertex and Kenwoods in
there apparatus. Mobils are a mix of motorola and Kenwwods.

 

[dittrimd]

I have several portables that can do narrow band and still the signal on 3875 is not as strong or as clear as the old 9875 wide band frequency. I do not believe they have reassigned the 9875 frequency becuase I still scan it. They were using both during the change over but now it is out of service. 33.78 is a backup freuquency for statewide fire mutual aid. TN uses it during periods of high call volume or if a large incident like a structure fire is going on 33.44 they will move cover assignments to 33.78. Other calls can be on 33.90 or 33.88.

As for 33.48 TN would like to get permission from Vernon and Rocky Hill to use this as an operational frequency. Rocky Hill is all on UHF and does no use the low band however they maintain the low band licensed. Vernon has a license but does not use it and are currently removing the lowband radios from their apparatus. Only chief officers will continue to maintain lowband for the time being. With all their UHF capability is seems a waste to have this valuable resourse just sitting thier for drills.

TN as well as the rest of the UHF Public Safety world is having a hard time getting UHF licenses of any substantial power. Since manufacturers are continuing to support lowband in both base station repeaters (Daniels) and mobiles TN is going to continue to use and develop more lowband capability. Most departments utilize UHF portables and Lowband mobiles with in vehicle repeaters. This type of system should continue to service TN's needs for quite some time. The main problem is that there are too many users on 33.44 and QV and KX both use 33.90 and QV uses 33.88. TN is attempting to get more lowband channels which would enable it to distribute it's users over more frequencys. If you listen to 33.44 during major weather events the traffic is insane. TN is also trying to get departments in the habbit of using low power fire ground channels for thier operations.

We all know how easy it is to get any agency to change their operaitons. I guess we will just have to wait and see how it goes.

 

[CT22]

Good call.

Fireground frequencies are probably the best thing for this entire regional dispatch area. UHF RF can penetrate buildings much better than low band because of the wave size allowing improved communications in/out larger buildings/basements. The radios are sometimes smaller and cheaper. There are RED, BLUE and the FIREPOLICE regional channels but I am not sure if everyone uses them up there. There are also the STOCS UHF frequencies which I believe can be used for fireground ops as well.

I wish our chief would wake up and stop refusing to go to fireground frequencies. You have to love officers that refuse to do something because they either dont understand it or they didnt think of it. East Hampton, East Haddam, Marlborough and Haddam Neck all share 46.22 which gets to be crazy at times (thunderstorms, ice, excessive rain, brush fires, numerous calls, etc). Try calling command with priority traffic while dispatch is walking all over you, Marlborough Engine 5 is signing on and a truck on the other side of town is coordinating a water supply all at the same time! Obviously this one of the problems with low band when there is no repeater involved. Then throw in the mix of multiple crossbands and people have to be trained on which channel to be on for certain parts of town. Then someone on low band next to you may not make it to the crossband and your UHF portabl in turn cant hear them... thats where vehicles repeaters make lots of sense. Sometime people turn a few on and that locks them up. Pyramid as well as a few other manufacturers have a feature where this is not a problem.

There only seems to be one problem and it may have changed with a newer revision of NFPA 1221 (i dont have my copy to reference its in my desk) but I seem to remember a paragraph stating that vehicle repeaters should not be relied on to make portable radios reach dispatch. Basically it said that you should have enough receivers to provide 100% coverage so dispatch can hear every radio whether it be mobile, portable or base.

I rode with a friend on mine in Glastonbury and there setup worked well. The incident commander had two UHF HT's. One was tuned to the dispatch/operations frequency so he could hear units signing on/off, messages from dispatch, etc and the second was on their UHF fireground frequency where he was directing his crews. I thought that was an excellent set up because there were not hogging the operatons frequency repeater with traffic the dispatcher did not need to hear. I think it might even help a dispatcher because they dont need to tune out certain conversations. They pretty much know if there is activity it is directed at them.

 

[dittrimd]

You highlight several issues that I am continually trying to deal with. Luckily I have a very progressive chief who is also a radio guy and understands radio ops very well. I have started a grass roots movement in my town by getting our major incidents off the main dispatch frequency and on to low power fire ground frequencies. I also have our fire police on the low power fire police frequency. One of our fire police is the chief of Tri-County fire police and they have recieved approval to use the glastonbury fire police frequency. I am working on getting this change through at the county level but as you stated there are several chiefs out there that are very resistant to change just becuase it is different than how they have been operating for several years. If we can get Tolland County behind the change then the departments will hopefully follow.

As far as vehicle repeaters I do not remember that statement in NFPA although I was not looking for it. I was mainly looking at the use of low power fireground channels. One of the big arguments from chiefs is that the dispatch centers cannot hear them and they are not recorded. NFPA states that the Saftey Officer for the incident it responsible for monitoring the fire ground channel in addition to the operations officer so any distress signals will not be missed. My reply to the chiefs who are concerned about the dispatch center not being able to hear a distress call is that if you have all you operations on one channel then the increased traffic could also prevent a distress signal from getting back to dispatch. If you find the reg for the vehicle repeater please post it.

As for 100% coverage, which should mean 100% portable coverage not mobile it gets very expensive and difficult to engineer. Since there is a move to UHF and the FCC is not licensing any high power UHF RF you then have to build a simulcasted voted system with several low power sites. The number of sites is directly proportional to the terrain in which you are attempting to operate in. In my town we have many elevation changes and preliminary estimates are between three and five remote sites for 100% coverage. This means tower sites with a generator and a dry conditioned space for radios. Voted recievers and simulcasted transmitters with very accurate clocks. Also how you link the sites is a big issue. In my opinion in public safety you do not want to use any commercial service like an internet provider. There is no reliablity built into their systems. It would be like using Nextel for emergency operations. If you lease copper of fiber then you could have a tree take out wires and your site would be out of service. The only truly reliable alternative is microwave which is expensive to purchase an install and then has very high maintainence costs. For many towns this is too much to bear. You mentioned Glastonbury which passed a 3 million dollar referendum to improve their radio system for fire, police, ems and public works. I would guess that most towns could not afford something like this. I know my town could never afford anything like this in one fiscal year. We would have to build the system slowly over time. TN dispatch as well does not have the money to build systems like this for their fire and EMS providers. It is a touch situation, one that does not have an easy solution. You can also forget the state taking any initiative on this matter as well. They built their system for the police which was close to 100 million after all was said and done and they have no plans to make any enhancement for the police let along volunteer fire and EMS providers.

 

[clyde]

To the best of my knowlage Vernon is now trying to use an off repeater ch for fireground ops at large incidents. As prEviously mentioned the "relearning process" takes time. The Fire Police Co
has for some time used an off repeater channel once on scene.