What is the main difference between them, What make type l San Diego system a PITS to program vrs RCS which I hear is easy? I guess type I would be if you knew how.
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Type I and type II Trunking. systems.
- Thread starter P25Radio
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doctordialtone
Member
OK but what makes the San Diego system type 1 hard to program. People go AHHH type 1 no way. Is it the fleet map stuff?
doctordialtone
Member
"Hard to program" is subjective.
It depends upon the radio and the programmer's knowledge.
back in the day (25 years ago) it was hard for me to use a type 1 only radio, to monitor a type II system.
the type II talkgroups were very different than the type 1
for example to decode a type II talkgroup AAF (just making up numbers)
you would have to figure out where that talk group fell in a type 1 fleet map, and it was not always isolated
maybe TG AAF could be monitored on Type 1 TG 10A Sizecode A TG 7 but then there was a issue that i found happened sometimes, where another TG would come up on TG 10A SZ7 TG7 and both couldnt be isolated at that point.
I haven't worked with this type of stuff in 25 years, it was really exciting to get a cheap type 1 Maxtrac to monitor a system, some of the most exciting stuff i was tinkering with in my early hobby years.
the type II talkgroups were very different than the type 1
for example to decode a type II talkgroup AAF (just making up numbers)
you would have to figure out where that talk group fell in a type 1 fleet map, and it was not always isolated
maybe TG AAF could be monitored on Type 1 TG 10A Sizecode A TG 7 but then there was a issue that i found happened sometimes, where another TG would come up on TG 10A SZ7 TG7 and both couldnt be isolated at that point.
I haven't worked with this type of stuff in 25 years, it was really exciting to get a cheap type 1 Maxtrac to monitor a system, some of the most exciting stuff i was tinkering with in my early hobby years.
RFI-EMI-GUY
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mmmm... not exactly.
P25 Phase 2 has 2:1 TDMA so that would be true for P25.
However Motorola SMARTNET Type 2 per your wiki link has an enhanced talk group signalling structure that was an improvement over the restrictive fixed fleet and subfleet structure of Type 1 (among other improvements). If you hear the term "size code" it is about the old type 1.
Don't really think you are talking about type 1 and 2, but think you mean phase 1 and 2.
Type 1 Motorola Trunked radio systems are very old close to 30 years old and can't really see any still being used any more.
Type 1 Motorola Trunked radio systems are very old close to 30 years old and can't really see any still being used any more.
Type II had alot more flexibility over the whole system, there were multiple things, but one thing that comes to mind is system wide Unit ID one radio maintained its same id nomatter what TG it was using, where in type 1, the radio had a different ID on each Fleet.
you could say a FLEET would be an agency, such as FD or Police, each would have their own fleet and various subfleets and IDs.
the larger the type 1 sizecode the more unit ids you can have. for example sizecode A, there was only 15 or 16 unit ids. sizecode A was typical of a small company, SIZE A facilitated 3 TG and 15/16 units
bigger sizecodes allowed for 7 or 15 TG, and those had a large number of unit IDs available
above i said sizecode 7, but meant to say a letter, sizecodes were letters not numbers.
you could say a FLEET would be an agency, such as FD or Police, each would have their own fleet and various subfleets and IDs.
the larger the type 1 sizecode the more unit ids you can have. for example sizecode A, there was only 15 or 16 unit ids. sizecode A was typical of a small company, SIZE A facilitated 3 TG and 15/16 units
bigger sizecodes allowed for 7 or 15 TG, and those had a large number of unit IDs available
above i said sizecode 7, but meant to say a letter, sizecodes were letters not numbers.
Wait, are you talking the old Motorola 3600baud Type 1 or Type 2 systems or the newer P25 Phase 1 and Phase 2 systems?
You reference an RCS system which I can only guess is this system: San Diego-Imperial County RCS NextGen Trunking System, Various, California - Scanner Frequencies
That’s a P25 Phase 2 system.
I don’t see any San Diego Motorola 3600baud Type 1 systems but I do see an old Motorola 3600baud Type 2 system.
So before we go any further trying to guess at what systems you’re referring to, how about providing some database links?
You reference an RCS system which I can only guess is this system: San Diego-Imperial County RCS NextGen Trunking System, Various, California - Scanner Frequencies
That’s a P25 Phase 2 system.
I don’t see any San Diego Motorola 3600baud Type 1 systems but I do see an old Motorola 3600baud Type 2 system.
So before we go any further trying to guess at what systems you’re referring to, how about providing some database links?
Well...I actually worked out every Type II TG to a size code A fleet/subfleet. It took awhile, but it's a repeating pattern. We used Standard trunking radios to monitor a large local Type II in the day (no system key required). Fun times.
I still have the several page conversion charts for some reason.
very cool, back in the day batlabs was still in its infancy and alot of my tinkering was trial and error.Well...I actually worked out every Type II TG to a size code A fleet/subfleet. It took awhile, but it's a repeating pattern. We used Standard trunking radios to monitor a large local Type II in the day (no system key required). Fun times.
I still have the several page conversion charts for some reason.
when Batlabs opened up its first generation forum, I was the first batlabs user to post about the scan list scanning method, i wasn't the first to think of it I'm sure, just the first to post about it on the old forum around 98-99
I worked that out on a MTX8000 portable that I also used on a local Motorola system. we had service since the mid 90s and it was great, the best coverage private "repeater" my friends and i would use. we knew it was trunking but preferred the technology over the local ham repeaters. beck then motorola charged 16$ a month, for 1 TG, an extra TG was 2$ and the ability to Private call was 2$ per radio and if you wanted an extra tower site turned on, that was also 2$ a month per radio and all radios that were programmed for that TG had to be turned on to go in effect.
we learned that if one of our radios was not active service, that if someone on our TG had keyed the TG they could piggy back on the carrier if they were quick enough w the key.
this worked well with Motorola Classics/MTX810s that had paging capability. a no service radio could still page a service radio, then that user would key his unit and the no service radio would key up and they carry on a QSO. cool times.
sometime around 1996 NEXTEL bought out the Motorola Trunking systems to take the frequencies for the new NEXTEL digital system.
their billing service changed, motorola was so easy to call and turn on and off stuff, but with NEXTEL they would botch up requests, fumle the simplest of request like turn on a radio.
finally they killed our Biz system in 1999. that type 1 system first went online in 1984
bringing back memories tonight lol, im old.
I re read your post and realized you said this....
I too had some standard radios, did some of my tinkering with those trying to figure out the fleet mapping.
580T PLUS portable and the GX5800T Mobile. I always thought it was interesting that Motorola licensed the Trunking technology to standard.
around 97 I convinced Standard Execs that I could market the radios as scanners, so they gave me dealer status, sent me a bunch of service manuals and i got discount pricing. but that all ended later when Vertex bought standard around 99 to 01? , they said i didnt sell enough to stay a dealer.
tunnelmot
Member
We also ran the 5800T around here as scanners. They made GREAT type II receivers! I have one here in near perfect shape for nostalgia's sake.
In my opinion the Standard dot matrix display was more pleasing than the Spectras vacuum flouro display, but that's just me.
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tunnelmot
Member
2318?
Do you remember ever "losing your dot" (dropping the cc)?2318?
Yes 2318, but we actually started with 2A28.
Mike I was talking about San Diego RCS and the City of San Diego. RCS is easy to program. San Diego City 700 system I have been told is a pain.
clbsquared
Member
San Diego City is using a P25 Phase 1 System. Not hard to program at all. You need to make sure you use Phase 1 and Phase 2 when speaking of P25 and not Type 1 and Type 2. They are totally different things. I would imagine everyone viewing this thread is thoroughly confused at this point.
Project25_MASTR
Millennial Graying OBT Guy
Type 1 = Motorola Privacy Plus. 3600 bps single site analog trunking system. Used the concept of fleet maps. Came out in the 80's and has largely been succeeded by other things. I still know of a few SMR's running Type 1, I turned down a Type 1 site last year for a friend as it only had a single customer left on it and the what originated as a 5 channel Startsite eventually whittled itself down to a single functioning Quantro after some 20 years of continuous operation.
Type 2 = Motorola SmartNet. 3600 bps successor to PrivacyPlus. While Type 2 could be backwards compatible with Type 1 by carefully aligning Talk Group IDs with the fleet map, SmartNet introduced some fairly massive new features. Biggest was that of SmartZone...or multi-site systems. Some other interesting tidbits were SmartNet's capability to use digital audio (Motorola's VSLEP based ASTRO at first and then the P25 CAI), the idea of an IntelliRepeater (where the repeaters also function as a site controller) which is still occasionally used to refer to a standalone P25 site (an IR site). SmartNet heavily influenced P25 trunking development in terms of the control signaling protocols.
Most Type 1 systems that are still operational today are SMR's or businesses which have managed to keep them running (3M was still operating a Type 1 system in Austin as recent as 3 years ago that was installed in 1989) as most municipalities/public safety customers long since upgraded to Type 2 or P25. Most Type 2 systems are being phased out for P25 as Motorola ended support for them a few years ago.
P25 Phase 1 = Uses a very similar signaling protocol to Type 2 but it's at 9600 bps instead of 3600 bps. P25 is digital voice only and used a combination of CQPSK (LSM) and C4FM depending on configuration. To program a Phase 1 system in most scanners, all you need to know is the control channels for the site of interest, system ID, and a band plan (if it is not advertised). The scanner will do the rest. P25 radios...depending on how the radio is configured you may only need a bandplan, system ID and WACN or a system ID, WACN and active control channel.
P25 Phase 2 = It's Phase 1 (and backwards compatible) but uses TDMA for voice data instead of CQPSK/C4FM. Allows for additional capacity without the need for additional RF resources. Systems can support Phase 1 & Phase 2 or Phase 2 only. The control channel however, is the same minus a previously null bit in the datastream to signal Phase 2 capable radios that the site is Phase 2 capable (Phase 1 radios simply ignore the bit). Requirements for programming a Phase 2 system are the same as a Phase 1 system. The only difference is the bandplan will have a way to signify that some channels are TDMA.
Type 2 = Motorola SmartNet. 3600 bps successor to PrivacyPlus. While Type 2 could be backwards compatible with Type 1 by carefully aligning Talk Group IDs with the fleet map, SmartNet introduced some fairly massive new features. Biggest was that of SmartZone...or multi-site systems. Some other interesting tidbits were SmartNet's capability to use digital audio (Motorola's VSLEP based ASTRO at first and then the P25 CAI), the idea of an IntelliRepeater (where the repeaters also function as a site controller) which is still occasionally used to refer to a standalone P25 site (an IR site). SmartNet heavily influenced P25 trunking development in terms of the control signaling protocols.
Most Type 1 systems that are still operational today are SMR's or businesses which have managed to keep them running (3M was still operating a Type 1 system in Austin as recent as 3 years ago that was installed in 1989) as most municipalities/public safety customers long since upgraded to Type 2 or P25. Most Type 2 systems are being phased out for P25 as Motorola ended support for them a few years ago.
P25 Phase 1 = Uses a very similar signaling protocol to Type 2 but it's at 9600 bps instead of 3600 bps. P25 is digital voice only and used a combination of CQPSK (LSM) and C4FM depending on configuration. To program a Phase 1 system in most scanners, all you need to know is the control channels for the site of interest, system ID, and a band plan (if it is not advertised). The scanner will do the rest. P25 radios...depending on how the radio is configured you may only need a bandplan, system ID and WACN or a system ID, WACN and active control channel.
P25 Phase 2 = It's Phase 1 (and backwards compatible) but uses TDMA for voice data instead of CQPSK/C4FM. Allows for additional capacity without the need for additional RF resources. Systems can support Phase 1 & Phase 2 or Phase 2 only. The control channel however, is the same minus a previously null bit in the datastream to signal Phase 2 capable radios that the site is Phase 2 capable (Phase 1 radios simply ignore the bit). Requirements for programming a Phase 2 system are the same as a Phase 1 system. The only difference is the bandplan will have a way to signify that some channels are TDMA.
So you are talking about Phase 1 and Phase 2 not Type 1 and Type 2 which are totally different.
Phase 1 and Phase 2 programming is basically identical so I don't know why someone would say it's difficult.
Sorry Mike that is what I meant Phase 1 and 2.
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