Urgent Communications Magazine: Is P25 finally reaching maturity?

[blantonl]

They're finally here. Last week the U.S. Department of Homeland Security's Office for Interoperability and Compatibility announced that eight laboratories were approved to test equipment as part of the Project 25 Compliance Assessment Program. That means first-responder agencies soon will be able to obtain third-party testing information that ensures that P25 equipment operates and interoperates as specified by the standard.

Is P25 finally reaching maturity? | Compliance testing will give public-safety agencies confidence to take leap - Urgent Communications article

 

[w8jjr]

Now thats the best news I've heard in awhile

 

[radioman2001]

DHS and others might not be as happy with the results. If FD and PD are wary of digital, a whole lot more testing is going to be needed. Just think how well your cellphone works when you leave your car window open when making a call, and that's wideband digital.

 

[N_Jay]

DHS and others might not be as happy with the results..

What results?

If FD and PD are wary of digital, a whole lot more testing is going to be needed. .

Lots of PDs and FDs are perfectly happy, and some very vocal ones are not.
However, this is not the testing being discussed.

Just think how well your cellphone works when you leave your car window open when making a call, and that's wideband digital.

Can we draw a few more unrelated analogies?

I have to wonder if you read the article before commenting?

 

[MTS2000des]

"Moreover, the real impact of these labs will be seen when they include certification of the P25 Inter RF Sub-system Interface standard, which enables two or more trunked P25 networks to be connected at the network layer. The P25 ISSI will enable roaming across multiple networks while allowing dispatchers to communicate with users outside of their home network coverage areas."

this is a step in the right direction, but what about certification of trunking systems that stray from the true P25 standard, such as Astro 25? Any vendor who pushes proprietary networks as true P25 CAI should not be carrying the "P25 Interoperability" shield. Motorola blew alot of smoke in particular with Astro SZ 4, calling it "P25 CAI compliant" because the voice channels used CAI modulation, but the system was not at all P25 CAI compliant by any means, and Astro 25 is in the same boat.

Hopefully the day will come when true P25 CAI trunking systems are sold. Of course, the reality is that P25 phase 1 is already outdated and outmoded. The shortcomings of the IMBE vocoder have been well documented by the US Fire administration and the recent NIST tests, it sucks on the fireground.
Maybe the prudent move is to hold out for Phase II or LTE on 700MHz, save our money where we really need to be spending it (like here in Atlanta where fire stations are closing instead of pissing it away on digital radios) and hold on to cost effective, proven analog systems until something 10 times better comes along.

As it stands, P25 phase I doesn't offer anything tremendously spectacular that it's analog FM predecessor cannot do for less, and without the problems of vocoding software issues, vendors trying to push proprietary solutions, and overpriced subscriber radios.

Analog is already interoperable.

 

[N_Jay]

this is a step in the right direction, but what about certification of trunking systems that stray from the true P25 standard, such as Astro 25?

How so?

Any vendor who pushes proprietary networks as true P25 CAI should not be carrying the "P25 Interoperability" shield. Motorola blew alot of smoke in particular with Astro SZ 4, calling it "P25 CAI compliant" because the voice channels used CAI modulation, but the system was not at all P25 CAI compliant by any means,

How so?

. . . and Astro 25 is in the same boat.

How so?

Hopefully the day will come when true P25 CAI trunking systems are sold.

You mean like what started a few years back?

Of course, the reality is that P25 phase 1 is already outdated and outmoded. The shortcomings of the IMBE vocoder have been well documented by the US Fire administration and the recent NIST tests, it sucks on the fireground.

Maybe you need to look into the current work being done and the fact that it is not simply a vocoder issue?

In addition, Phase 1 is neither outdated nor outmoded. (no more then any standard is)

Maybe the prudent move is to hold out for Phase II or LTE on 700MHz, save our money where we really need to be spending it (like here in Atlanta where fire stations are closing instead of pissing it away on digital radios) and hold on to cost effective, proven analog systems until something 10 times better comes along.

1) Phase 2 does not replace Phase 1.
2) LTE is not a good fit for anything but broadband. (And waiting for broadband is a fools errand, in my opinion)
3) When was the last time you waited for a "10 times better" in any technology?

As it stands, P25 phase I doesn't offer anything tremendously spectacular that it's analog FM predecessor cannot do for less, and without the problems of vocoding software issues, vendors trying to push proprietary solutions, and overpriced subscriber radios.

Really? Can you show me a narrow band system with the same range and same features as P25?

Analog is already interoperable.

Only if you have ZERO features added.
Remember, once upon a time, "PL" was a proprietary feature!

 

[MTS2000des]

NJay you are such a cheerleader.

tell me what other radios are available other than EF Johnson for MOTOROLA Smartzone 4 and Astro 25 that are AFFORDABLE? I'll answer that....none. Who makes a true and open P25 compliant trunking system? I'll answer that...no one.

tell me what the results of the NIST P25 tests and conclusions were regarding use of digital radios on the fireground....I'll answer that...use analog if you want your guys to be safe. I've studied this more than you and the problem does lie in the inability of the vocoder to deal with background noise. Please provide links, facts, etc if there is more than that there. I'd love to hear it.

tell me why we should scrap our currently adequate functional and affordable analog FM systems for overpriced P25 phase I...I'll answer that...we shouldn't. At a time when our cities and counties are struggling to keep fire stations open and police officers on the street, we have more pressing issues than buying overpriced technology toys that don't cut it.

every major feature of P25 Phase I is available on less expensive analog systems, PassPort trunking systems have more security (ESN validation) than P25, and affordable subscriber radios are available from plenty of vendors (Icom, Vertex, Kenwood, and Motorola). So again, what is the competitive advantage of P25 phase I? It makes vendors, especially Motorola, an insane amount of profit. That's about it. Analog radios do just about everything P25 can, selective calling, emergency ID, remote radio kill, priority scan- ever uses a Kenwood TK-2180 or Motorola HT1550 XLS? Ever heard of Stat-Alert? Does just about everything a fancy digital radio can, except the craptacular digital artifacts and you can talk to any brand of radio on the same RF band with them.

narrowband analog systems don't have the same amount of coverage as digital? please provide some factual examples of this. Oh I know, next you are going to spin the lies that other Motorola sales weasels give their unknowing customers that "there is a mandate to go digital like the DTV switch"...

I never said phase II replaced phase I, but if something better, more refined is just around the corner that answers the problems of phase I, and actually offers a real advantage (such as 2:1 TDMA which allows more users per RF channel) why piss money away on yesterday's technology at tomorrow's prices?
LTE hasn't been fully implemented yet. Working with vendors and network operators to provide the next generation of nationwide public safety systems is a wise investment. Look at what the EU and UK has done with TETRA and it works. Multiple vendors building both infrastructure and subscriber units, a solid network with advanced features that really count, and it certainly is 10 times better than analog. Why did they not bother with P25 phase I? Maybe for all the reasons I cited above and then some.

What is 10 times better? Look at things you own that replaced their predecessors that meet the "10X rule"
DVD versus VHS.
HDTV versus analog TV
Broadband versus dial-up
CD versus cassettes

P25 phase I doesn't follow the same rules, it isn't 10 times better than what it replaces, overpriced, riddled with bugs and doesn't really do anything spectacular that what we don't already have does- other than drain and strain our already tight budgets do.

Some good reading for you when you put down your P25 phase I Kool-Aid:

Daryl Jones' Weblog

 

[code3cowboy]

Only if you have ZERO features added.

Not true. MDC1200 does not interfere with outside agencies, paging does not interfere with outside agencies on your channel, MODAT does not interfere with outside agencies, Singletone could interfere with outside people using your system but if this is an issue for you it is time for different fish in your bucket. You can trunk analog stuff if you wish. You can have several priorities in your scan list, you can build command groups, hell we have encrypted analog stuff.

Apart from devouring batteries and multiplying your dead zones exponentially, what is it p25 gives you? Last time I checked everyone has a p25 smart zone system. . .

So tell me how p25 makes you interoperable, as the ONLY agency within 130 miles of me to have gone p25 has to use a simplex clear analog mutual aid frequency to talk to any other agency (including air units).

 

[citylink_uk]

EADS Defence Systems markets open P25 Trunking infrastructure that's sold with subscriber radios from at least Kenwood, Icom and Tait.

We use TETRA here for Fire, but ONLY for wide area comms, it works great and sounds very nice but incident radios are analogue as we simply don't trust digital comms on the fire ground. The lack of an interrupt feature puts us off.

TETRA has been out since the mid 1990's and offers so much more than P25 ever has, so I hope Phase II will allow P25 to 'catch up'.

NJay you are such a cheerleader.

tell me what other radios are available other than EF Johnson for MOTOROLA Smartzone 4 and Astro 25 that are AFFORDABLE? I'll answer that....none. Who makes a true and open P25 compliant trunking system? I'll answer that...no one.

tell me what the results of the NIST P25 tests and conclusions were regarding use of digital radios on the fireground....I'll answer that...use analog if you want your guys to be safe. I've studied this more than you and the problem does lie in the inability of the vocoder to deal with background noise. Please provide links, facts, etc if there is more than that there. I'd love to hear it.

tell me why we should scrap our currently adequate functional and affordable analog FM systems for overpriced P25 phase I...I'll answer that...we shouldn't. At a time when our cities and counties are struggling to keep fire stations open and police officers on the street, we have more pressing issues than buying overpriced technology toys that don't cut it.

every major feature of P25 Phase I is available on less expensive analog systems, PassPort trunking systems have more security (ESN validation) than P25, and affordable subscriber radios are available from plenty of vendors (Icom, Vertex, Kenwood, and Motorola). So again, what is the competitive advantage of P25 phase I? It makes vendors, especially Motorola, an insane amount of profit. That's about it. Analog radios do just about everything P25 can, selective calling, emergency ID, remote radio kill, priority scan- ever uses a Kenwood TK-2180 or Motorola HT1550 XLS? Ever heard of Stat-Alert? Does just about everything a fancy digital radio can, except the craptacular digital artifacts and you can talk to any brand of radio on the same RF band with them.

narrowband analog systems don't have the same amount of coverage as digital? please provide some factual examples of this. Oh I know, next you are going to spin the lies that other Motorola sales weasels give their unknowing customers that "there is a mandate to go digital like the DTV switch"...

I never said phase II replaced phase I, but if something better, more refined is just around the corner that answers the problems of phase I, and actually offers a real advantage (such as 2:1 TDMA which allows more users per RF channel) why piss money away on yesterday's technology at tomorrow's prices?
LTE hasn't been fully implemented yet. Working with vendors and network operators to provide the next generation of nationwide public safety systems is a wise investment. Look at what the EU and UK has done with TETRA and it works. Multiple vendors building both infrastructure and subscriber units, a solid network with advanced features that really count, and it certainly is 10 times better than analog. Why did they not bother with P25 phase I? Maybe for all the reasons I cited above and then some.

 

[N_Jay]

I know some don't like the point by point posting style, but with so many issues, it is meant to keep it clear, and not to be argumentative (as some seem to see it)

tell me what other radios are available other than EF Johnson for MOTOROLA Smartzone 4 and Astro 25 that are AFFORDABLE? I'll answer that....none. Who makes a true and open P25 compliant trunking system? I'll answer that...no one.

You seem to be implying the SZ4 and Astro25 are the same.
What people need to understand is that many systems out there were implemented within the technology and version that existed at the time.

I'll answer that....none. Who makes a true and open P25 compliant trunking system? I'll answer that...no one.

Wrong! Astro25 is a P25 compliant system, and is Tyco's (now Harris) P25IP, EFJ's IP25, and systems by Tait, EADS, PowerTrunk, and others.

tell me what the results of the NIST P25 tests and conclusions were regarding use of digital radios on the fireground....I'll answer that...use analog if you want your guys to be safe. I've studied this more than you and the problem does lie in the inability of the vocoder to deal with background noise. Please provide links, facts, etc if there is more than that there. I'd love to hear it.

Yes, the vocoder is a big piece, but not the whole issue. I expect that the answer is going to come from vocoder improvements, noise cancellation improvements, and operating procedure improvements. To look only to the vocoder is short sighted.
One example is the noise cancellation of the APX portable. I would expect the industry to make these type of improvements across the board in the near future. Maybe you forgot how early digital cell phones sounded, and maybe you have not looked into teh differences in audio intelligibility and background noise suppression between different models and different manufactures, even using the same vocoder.

tell me why we should scrap our currently adequate functional and affordable analog FM systems for overpriced P25 phase I...I'll answer that...we shouldn't. At a time when our cities and counties are struggling to keep fire stations open and police officers on the street, we have more pressing issues than buying overpriced technology toys that don't cut it.

It depends?
Do you want to add features in a non-proprietary manner?
Do you want to narrowband without a reduction in coverage?
Do you want/need to be interoperable with other P25 systems?
Not everyone needs to update there systems, but if you do, there are important questions to ask before you ASSUME that staying analog is the correct answer.

every major feature of P25 Phase I is available on less expensive analog systems, PassPort trunking systems have more security (ESN validation) than P25, and affordable subscriber radios are available from plenty of vendors (Icom, Vertex, Kenwood, and Motorola). So again, what is the competitive advantage of P25 phase I?

Only if you want to buy into soem aprticular manufactuers proprietary system.
I always find it interesting when someone complains about P25 "not" being a standard, and then pulls out a bunch of vendor specific add-on technologies as the solution.
Compared to any of the solutions you have called out, there are MORE companies providing P25 equipment. Maybe you have not looked hard enough?

It makes vendors, especially Motorola, an insane amount of profit. That's about it.

And you call me a cheerleader? You seem to be cheering for the other side pretty hard (and using a lot of old information, 1/2 truths, and falsehoods to make your point)

Analog radios do just about everything P25 can, selective calling, emergency ID, remote radio kill, priority scan- ever uses a Kenwood TK-2180 or Motorola HT1550 XLS? Ever heard of Stat-Alert? Does just about everything a fancy digital radio can, except the craptacular digital artifacts and you can talk to any brand of radio on the same RF band with them.

Again, you seem to have missed (or are intentionally confussing) the point that all these systems add features in proprietary overlays.
P25 provides these features and more in an integrated and STANDARDIZED manner.

narrowband analog systems don't have the same amount of coverage as digital? please provide some factual examples of this.

Do the math. 12.5 kHz analog has a 1.2 to 3 dB reduction in S/N and therefor rang over 25 kHz analog.
P25 provides the same range in a 12.5 kHz channel as analog FM in a 25 kHz channel.
Most recent P25 implementations are providing more coverage than the analog systems they replaced.
Any hams here using P25 want to comment on their experience?

Oh I know, next you are going to spin the lies that other Motorola sales weasels give their unknowing customers that "there is a mandate to go digital like the DTV switch"...

I have heard this many times . . . second hand.
Not much to sa, sales people are sales people, there are good ones and bad ones.
I keep waiting to hear it first hand so I can blast the guy (but for some reason, I have NEVER heard it first hand, Go figger??)

I never said phase II replaced phase I, but if something better, more refined is just around the corner that answers the problems of phase I, and actually offers a real advantage (such as 2:1 TDMA which allows more users per RF channel) why piss money away on yesterday's technology at tomorrow's prices?

You might not have said it, but you certainly implied it.
They each have their place. Not every system needs what Phase 2 provides.
In the end most will probably use both.
You seem to float back and fourth between "Keep what works" and "Only the latest technology is worth getting"?

LTE hasn't been fully implemented yet. Working with vendors and network operators to provide the next generation of nationwide public safety systems is a wise investment.

The last buzzword was WiMAX, the current is LTE, by th etime anyone figures out how to roll out a nationwide PS broadband network it will be something else.
Is for the wise investment, I have not seen any convincing numbers yet, but there are a lot of smart people (and big companies) working on it.

Look at what the EU and UK has done with TETRA and it works. Multiple vendors building both infrastructure and subscriber units, a solid network with advanced features that really count, and it certainly is 10 times better than analog. Why did they not bother with P25 phase I? Maybe for all the reasons I cited above and then some.

TETRA is unique in Europe. If you want to know what they have TETRA instead of P25, the reason has more to do with the standards process and egos than technology.
How is TETRA so good if P25 is so bad in your opinion?
Similar vocoder background noise issues.
Similar numbers of both handset and infrastructure vendors. (Actually, I think P25 has more right now).
Much higher infrastructure costs. (Breaks even with less expensive subscribers only on very large systems.
Much higher site counts for systems typical to what you need in the US.
Not suitable to US frequency plans.
Unable to fit into most rural and suburban US environments/frequency allocations.
Only one system architecture(multi-site/trunked), not the range covered by P25 (Simplex, simulcast, trunked, multi-site, and mixed)

What is 10 times better? Look at things you own that replaced their predecessors that meet the "10X rule"
DVD versus VHS.
HDTV versus analog TV
Broadband versus dial-up
CD versus cassettes

OK, most of these I will give you, but still question the 10X measurement, especially when first released.
i.e. How many years was it before DVD replaced VHS i(Including recording ability)
Same for CD vs tape?

P25 phase I doesn't follow the same rules, it isn't 10 times better than what it replaces, overpriced, riddled with bugs and doesn't really do anything spectacular that what we don't already have does- other than drain and strain our already tight budgets do.

EXCEPT bring together all the various features available only on proprietary systems in a standardized manner and onto a platform to evolve forward in the future. (yet not much)
Guess we should go back to Cassettes and VHS, because for the first 5 to 10 years CDs and DVDs were expensive and could not record.

Some good reading for you when you put down your P25 phase I Kool-Aid:

Daryl Jones' Weblog

Don't worry, I read Daryl's ranting.
Just be careful in buying into his position, as he often basses his Anti-P25 position on bad or outdated information.

 

[N_Jay]

TETRA has been out since the mid 1990's and offers so much more than P25 ever has, so I hope Phase II will allow P25 to 'catch up'.

Such as?

 

[MTS2000des]

Njay,

Regardless of Motorola's systems "available at the time", the problem I have with their marketing is they often sold SZ 4 and 5 as "P25" and truth is it wasn't. Let's see you buy an Icom, Kenwood, Tait or Uniden radio and program it to work on such system. You can't.

Astro 25 has the same limitation, and you still can't buy anything from anyone else except EFJ and that only exists because the Feds are informed customers and refuse to get locked into a single vendor for a system. I've yet to see a P25 radio from Icom, Tait, Vertex Standard (now owned by Motorola) or MA/Com that will work on Astro 25, have you? If so please post the model number and links please.

Your theory of narrowband being inferior is laughable at best. A $2.50 audio compander chip overcomes any audio degradation. All the major manufacturers include it on narrowband capable offerings since the late 90's. I'd take compandered audio anyday over compressed, watery IMBE. And yes as a ham of over 20 years I own P25 equipment and still prefer and get better performance out of our 20KHz analog FM. Funny how when these 60 million dollar radio systems fail, that's what we always turn to- good old reliable time tested, affordable conventional FM radio. No infrastructure? No problem. Please provide some documentation and case studies of narrowband systems converted from wideband that now suffer this inferior performance you speak of. Lots of assertions but zero evidence.

You also agreed that all the features available on P25 can be had with conventional analog- you shout STANDARDIZED, but signaling formats such as MDC1200 are now widely available from many vendors as are trunking protocols such as LTR and PassPort, all of which offer just as many features and access security (PassPort is actually superior to Astro 25 in this respect, ask any PassPort system operator) and for far less cost. Conventional radio is about as standardized as you can get.

I am not even going to go there regarding TETRA, it's more not in this country because *MOTOROLA* fought hard to keep it out because they'd much rather push their overpriced Astro 25 systems on us.
If customers only knew what they were missing...

"And you call me a cheerleader? You seem to be cheering for the other side pretty hard (and using a lot of old information, 1/2 truths, and falsehoods to make your point)"

and what "side" are you referring to? I am on the side of keeping our men and women safe who put their lives on the line so we can all enjoy being safe in our communities. I am sick and tired of vendors draining our budgets, selling us the same stuff over and over again, regurgitated- making promises that don't deliver, only to fleece the taxpayers again. It is a disservice to the men and women who work in public safety to force them to play guinea pig and beta test this crap that DOESN'T WORK at the cost of HUMAN LIFE- all while padding the kitty of a vendor who is trying everything to save face with it's stockholders. It is just as much the fault of the customers who fail to do research and listen to people like you who's only interest is selling them something they really don't need at a price they honestly cannot afford.

You tell me what you would rather have: fancy digital radios that don't do anything the analog ones that worked fine don't do, or open fire houses ready to respond to your house on fire. That is what we are dealing with in my town pal. And I'm about fed up with people like you who blow smoke up the asses of unknowing officials and sell us this crap that doesn't work when we had perfectly good functioning systems that were cost effective and reliable in the first place.

You say I speak of misinformation? Provide some facts, links or STFU. All you have done is atypical Motorola INsultant rhetoric and it's unseemly.

The side I am on is that of the folks who serve us. I don't get a paycheck from any vendor, so have no pecuniary interest in any vendor. I just want us to get what we pay for, and that is reliable and affordable communications for our first responders- something that has yet to happen around here. We've spent hundreds of millions of dollars on trunking systems over the past 20 years and yet to have interoperability or reliable systems.

Maybe we need to shop around, because the vendor we have been dealing with has yet to deliver, it's like Microsoft.."that will be in the next release of Windows...buy a new PC every 6 months, and all new software" seems to be the case with Motorola.

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

 

[N_Jay]

Regardless of Motorola's systems "available at the time", the problem I have with their marketing is they often sold SZ 4 and 5 as "P25" and truth is it wasn't. Let's see you buy an Icom, Kenwood, Tait or Uniden radio and program it to work on such system. You can't.

1) So if you ran the world, should they have sold VSEP Astro SZ systems untill full P25 was ready,
OR,
Should they have not sold anything?

Of course in your world either of these two worse solution is better?:roll: Get real!

2) Those systems have not v=been available for several years, so trying to say that is teh situation today is a LIE.(Yes, I know it supports your beliefs, but wrong all teh same)

Astro 25 has the same limitation, and you still can't buy anything from anyone else except EFJ

Wrong. Talk to the people n Montana, Illinois, Wyoming, The DOD, or any of the other P25 system owners who have successfully tested multiple vendors radios.
Sorry no links now (Have to do mor looking) (Show me one link to a current P25 system that supports your position.)
Seems not too many links on the subject.

. . . the Feds are informed customers and refuse to get locked into a single vendor for a system. I've yet to see a P25 radio from Icom, Tait, Vertex Standard (now owned by Motorola) or MA/Com that will work on Astro 25, have you? If so please post the model number and links please.

I have seen it work (in the first person, not "stories")
PROJECT 25 (P25) INTEROPERABILITY DEMONSTRATION COMPLETED SUCCESSFULLY | Pepro LLC

Your theory of narrowband being inferior is laughable at best. A $2.50 audio compander chip overcomes any audio degradation.

Do the math.
Now that you have shown your lack of understanding of modulation theory.
Sorry, you are simply wrong.
Call your local University and speak with a EE professor.
I think everything you need is in TIA-TSB-88

All the major manufacturers include it on narrowband capable offerings since the late 90's. I'd take compandered audio anyday over compressed, watery IMBE. And yes as a ham of over 20 years I own P25 equipment and still prefer and get better performance out of our 20KHz analog FM.

Why don't you try some coverage tests?
Let me know how it works at the fringes.

Funny how when these 60 million dollar radio systems fail, that's what we always turn to- good old reliable time tested, affordable conventional FM radio. No infrastructure? No problem. Please provide some documentation and case studies of narrowband systems converted from wideband that now suffer this inferior performance you speak of. Lots of assertions but zero evidence.

I guess (in your world) systems never failed before P25, and when a P25 system does fail, somehow P25 conventional is not available?:roll::roll: What a stupid argument.

You also agreed that all the features available on P25 can be had with conventional analog- you shout STANDARDIZED, but signaling formats such as MDC1200 are now widely available from many vendors as are trunking protocols such as LTR and PassPort, all of which offer just as many features and access security (PassPort is actually superior to Astro 25 in this respect, ask any PassPort system operator) and for far less cost. Conventional radio is about as standardized as you can get.

LOL, Again, I love the argument that "P25 is not a good enough standard, and as poof I will adopt a non-standard just because I can get it from more than one company.

Only an anti-P25 cheerleader can make that argument with a strait face.

I am not even going to go there regarding TETRA, it's more not in this country because *MOTOROLA* fought hard to keep it out because they'd much rather push their overpriced Astro 25 systems on us.
If customers only knew what they were missing...

iDEN lite. Thta is what we are missing.

Why don't you investigate the intellectual property issues surrounding TETRA before you try to play expert.
This time I will ask for a link to ANY real information that supports your view. (Opinions and second hand comments do not count)

"And you call me a cheerleader? You seem to be cheering for the other side pretty hard (and using a lot of old information, 1/2 truths, and falsehoods to make your point)"

and what "side" are you referring to? I am on the side of keeping our men and women safe who put their lives on the line so we can all enjoy being safe in our communities. I am sick and tired of vendors draining our budgets, selling us the same stuff over and over again, regurgitated- making promises that don't deliver, only to fleece the taxpayers again. It is a disservice to the men and women who work in public safety to force them to play guinea pig and beta test this crap that DOESN'T WORK at the cost of HUMAN LIFE- all while padding the kitty of a vendor who is trying everything to save face with it's stockholders. It is just as much the fault of the customers who fail to do research and listen to people like you who's only interest is selling them something they really don't need at a price they honestly cannot afford.

Interesting perspective. Sounds like sour grapes from some bad purchases to me.

What about the happy customers. (Yes, there are many)

Maybe if every purchase you are involved with is so bad, you need to look at the common ground. :twisted:

You tell me what you would rather have: fancy digital radios that don't do anything the analog ones that worked fine don't do, or open fire houses ready to respond to your house on fire. That is what we are dealing with in my town pal. And I'm about fed up with people like you who blow smoke up the asses of unknowing officials and sell us this crap that doesn't work when we had perfectly good functioning systems that were cost effective and reliable in the first place.

1) You don't know me.
2) Where did I say what was right for your agency?
3) Every systejm owner needs to do what is right.
4) P25 does not fix a poor procurement, and does not break a good one.
5) The one blowing smoke here is you!

You say I speak of misinformation? Provide some facts, links or STFU. All you have done is atypical Motorola INsultant rhetoric and it's unseemly.

ANd your supporting documentation.
Please take a SINGLE fact I have posted and find a creditable link refuting it.

The side I am on is that of the folks who serve us. I don't get a paycheck from any vendor, so have no pecuniary interest in any vendor. I just want us to get what we pay for, and that is reliable and affordable communications for our first responders- something that has yet to happen around here. We've spent hundreds of millions of dollars on trunking systems over the past 20 years and yet to have interoperability or reliable systems.

A noble goal, but starting with facts and not emotion might help.

Maybe we need to shop around, because the vendor we have been dealing with has yet to deliver, it's like Microsoft.."that will be in the next release of Windows...buy a new PC every 6 months, and all new software" seems to be the case with Motorola.

Maybe you do?
If you hate Motorola so much why do you buy from them,
or are you one of those self proclaimed experts with no responsibility?

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

Yes, I agree.
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH with your uniformed, outdated, misleading, and wrong information.

 

[MTS2000des]

You are so full of yourself, not going to bother to respond because it's pointless. your position is clear, and anything you say comes from one who has a pecuniary interest in selling/pushing P25, no matter what anyone says if they don't agree, they are wrong.

Darryl Jones successfully narrowbanded and agency on UHF for less than 5 grand- no loss of coverage or performance. My experience with using narrowband 2.5KHz on a VHF PassPort system shows better performance and coverage than the county's 3 site Astro 25 system. Ironically, the PassPort system is only designed to cover a single municipality not the entire county. We are talking on hip portable coverage of 98 percent. The Astro 25 system pales in comparison. Full featured PassPort radios cost less than half the price of basic entry level Astro 25 radios. The money the city saved by building their own narrowband VHF PassPort system was spent on much needed IT infrastructure including a citywide 4.9GHz secure wireless network. That's intelligent spending.

One thing you Motorola sales guys miss is many of us are stuck with 800MHz, the same worthless POS band pushed on us (and Smartnet) during the 90's as an "interoperability solution", and yet we never achieved that goal. Like a crackhead, we crawl back to the dope man hoping to reach that high, buying whatever is sold. The fact is there is very little 800MHz non-Astro 25 gear exists, and the majority of the Astro 25 systems sold to municipalities and states are 800MHz. The examples you cited are VHF and UHF. The Feds don't use 800 like the rest of us pretty much are forced to do because we have such a huge investment in it.

Truth is we should have stayed on conventional UHF and VHF, we had more end to end "interoperability" than any of these overpriced trunking systems have given us. It really tells you something when the two largest cities in the USA are conventional VHF and UHF, with NYCPD and LAPD being strictly conventional. The NYCPD UHF system has some of the best coverage of any municipal public safety radio system, and proved reliable during the worst disaster in American history.

Where was the state of Lousiana's Smartzone digital TRS in the aftermath of Katrina? Off the air.
What worked? VHF analog conventional radio, those who had high power VHF radios could talk reliably across the parishes affected. No high priced, venerable infrastructure to fail.

But you know everything N_Jay, so I don't need to remind you of this.
Your arrogance and smugness reminds me why I despise this industry and will work that much harder to change the entire process through legislation on how we procure and implement these vital links our folks depend on to do their jobs.

Thanks for reminding me why Motorola's stock is in the toilet.

I hear Kenwood and Icom are doing quite nicely and not reporting such losses. No doubt in my mind why when people like you open your mouths.

 

[N_Jay]

With apologies to Lindsay for keeping this going probably longer than it should.
You are way over the edge here. You better grab hold of some reality before you fall over.

You are so full of yourself, not going to bother to respond because it's pointless. your position is clear, and anything you say comes from one who has a pecuniary interest in selling/pushing P25, no matter what anyone says if they don't agree, they are wrong.

I am full of myself?
You are the one who decided to post a misleading and mostly untruthful diatribe to Lindsay's posting a article in a respected industry trade journal.
And then you attack me for correcting your false statements. Get real.

Darryl Jones successfully narrowbanded and agency on UHF for less than 5 grand- no loss of coverage or performance.

Good for Daryl. Did I say anything to the contrary (or are you hearing things)
What I don't understand is who taught you to have a rational discussion? Continuously bringing in unrelated facts and statements just shows people how emotional you are (and how little information you have)

My experience with using narrowband 2.5KHz on a VHF PassPort system shows better performance and coverage than the county's 3 site Astro 25 system.

Really? Is it the same band, same sites, and same power?
If not it does not sound like it proves your point or disproves mine.
(Or is it more random statements as you try to be a know it all.

Ironically, the PassPort system is only designed to cover a single municipality not the entire county. We are talking on hip portable coverage of 98 percent.

OK, so it was over-designed? What great engineer did that?
P.S. How was it tested (In case you don't know, statistically valid tests are not as simple as some know it alls like you think.)

The Astro 25 system pales in comparison. Full featured PassPort radios cost less than half the price of basic entry level Astro 25 radios. The money the city saved by building their own narrowband VHF PassPort system was spent on much needed IT infrastructure including a citywide 4.9GHz secure wireless network. That's intelligent spending.

Congratulations.
But where did I say anything that disagrees with anything in here?
(Again, you are going off on emotional tangents in a feeble attempt to look right)

One thing you Motorola sales guys miss is many of us are stuck with 800MHz, the same worthless POS band pushed on us (and Smartnet) during the 90's as an "interoperability solution", and yet we never achieved that goal.

Again, you don't know who I am. So yet again, here is another incorrect ASSUMPTION.

So now is it 800 MHz you hate, or P25? I can't keep it strait.

BTW, there are regions where in the 80's and 90's multiple agencies decided to standardize their networks on SmartNet and have great interoperability, but why lets facts get in your way.

Like a crackhead, we crawl back to the dope man hoping to reach that high, buying whatever is sold. The fact is there is very little 800MHz non-Astro 25 gear exists, and the majority of the Astro 25 systems sold to municipalities and states are 800MHz.

You have such high regard to the people who actually plan, purchase and use these systems. Acording to you, YOU know more than any of them!
And you call me a "Know-it-all"??:roll: (Yet another "get real" moment!)

The examples you cited are VHF and UHF. The Feds don't use 800 like the rest of us pretty much are forced to do because we have such a huge investment in it.

You were asking about P25 not 800 MHz. (stop changing the topic, it really makes you look bad).
BTW, Illinois is 800 MHz, but again don't let facts get in the way of your rants.

Truth is we should have stayed on conventional UHF and VHF, we had more end to end "interoperability" than any of these overpriced trunking systems have given us.

WOW, yet another off topic rant.
Is it P25, 800 MHz, or Trunking that you hate? I keep losing track.:roll:

It really tells you something when the two largest cities in the USA are conventional VHF and UHF, with NYCPD and LAPD being strictly conventional. The NYCPD UHF system has some of the best coverage of any municipal public safety radio system, and proved reliable during the worst disaster in American history.

LAPD is P25 (just in case you did not know)
And yes, both have highly districted systems that favor conventional for now.
(Of course all this is completely off topic from what you have decided to prove yourself the know-it-all about.)

Where was the state of Lousiana's Smartzone digital TRS in the aftermath of Katrina? Off the air.

What failed was the infrastructure. It did not matter if it was 800 MHz, trunked, P25, conventional, Repeaters, or simplex base stations, when the site floods, or the tower falls you are off the air.
But thanks again for yet another off-topic rant.
BTW, do you know what type of system that are re-building there? Guess.

What worked? VHF analog conventional radio, those who had high power VHF radios could talk reliably across the parishes affected. No high priced, venerable infrastructure to fail.

Were you there?
Have you talked to those who were?
What worked was bits and pieces cobbled back together. Yes, much of it VHF simplex.

But you know everything N_Jay, so I don't need to remind you of this.

LOL, Nope.
I don't know it all.
I just know what I know, and ave a good grasp of what I don't know, so I don't spout off on things I don't know like you have decided to do.
(Now who is the "Know-It-all" again??) :roll::roll:

Remind me again, how any of your (un)facts related to the original post?

Your arrogance and smugness reminds me why I despise this industry

Oh, yes, you are one of those "everyone is wrong, and I am right" kind of guys.
No wonder why your emotions run so high on things you "Know-it-all" about.

. . . and will work that much harder to change the entire process through legislation on how we procure and implement these vital links our folks depend on to do their jobs.

Best of luck with that. When was the last time someone asked you to help with a major procurement? Maybe we know why?

Thanks for reminding me why Motorola's stock is in the toilet.

More evidence that you;
1) Think you "Know-it-all"
and
2) Don't know what you are talking about.

Why don't you look at Motorola's financials, and get back to us on your ASSUMPTION that something in the LMR group is having a negative effect on the stock price.

MOT: Motorola, Inc. Stock Report | Quote & News
Motorola, Inc. - Quarterly Report

I hear Kenwood and Icom are doing quite nicely and not reporting such losses. No doubt in my mind why when people like you open your mouths.

And they are NOT in the cellular market and ARE in the P25 market?
(So what was your point?):roll::roll:

Now, if you care to post something less than full page, just pick ONE thing I have presented as fact, and post a simple creditable link showing I am mistaken, wrong, or apparently misleading.

Good luck, and good night.

 

[MTS2000des]

I'm done with this, N_Jay I don't care "who you are" (not that it matters, as anyone can claim to be anyone on the Internet...lots of "virtual balls" online so who cares). I've read many of your postings and it is clear you have a pecuniary interest in promoting Motorola Astro 25 as the end all solution to our nation's public safety communications issues, when clearly it is not and is no better than what we currently have. Plenty of information supports this and you know it.

FYI I have been involved in many system acquisitions and design, including that Passport system I spoke of, but not in a pecuniary way. you see, some of us contribute to our community through volunteering and support our government, because, at the end of the day, the government is of the people, and for the people. My profession is in health care, not selling radios. I don't care what system we buy, as long as it WORKS and we GET WHAT WE PAID FOR. This isn't the case in many situations that play our across the country and some of us want to change that for the better. And not put one dime in our pocket either, because at the end of the day, we all benefit when our government makes wise choices and we all suffer when foolish ones are made.

In the Atlanta area, we all were sold on Smartnet as being the interoperability solution. It never materialized. Now we've been forced by the vendor to replace these systems, which did function quite well given the limitations on budgets during the initial RFP stages, with even more costly hardware from the same vendor peddling the same promises and yet, three years later, are also unfulfilled. We have fire stations closed because not enough money is in the bank to pay for staff because our superiors are told we HAVE to go P25 OR ELSE, and various other lies (such as the DTV excuse, the mysterious Federal mandate that doesn't exist, et al) that convinced our elected officials to spend funds that aren't there.

Now there are plenty of new radios and no one is on the other end to answer them because they are on furlough. The new radios and systems don't do anything the old ones couldn't do, and in fact, don't sound as good audio wise. All we are is that much poorer with not much to show for it.

for the record I don't care for any proprietary walled garden supported by a single vendor, as this locks you into playing their game forever and ever. One day we will learn from these mistakes. One good thing will come out of this economy is it will force all of us to make more prudent decision and when the salesman makes his rounds, we will learn to just say NO, and do more independent research before buying into the latest pitch of the week.

Take care,

MTS2000des

 

[N_Jay]

I'm done with this, N_Jay I don't care "who you are" (not that it matters, as anyone can claim to be anyone on the Internet...lots of "virtual balls" online so who cares). I've read many of your postings and it is clear you have a pecuniary interest in promoting Motorola Astro 25 as the end all solution to our nation's public safety communications issues, when clearly it is not and is no better than what we currently have. Plenty of information supports this and you know it.

My point was not about "who I am".
My point was that you made incorrect assumptions about who I am several times in your posts. (All part of not knowing what you don't know)

While I am a proponent of P25, not for everyone and not in all cases, but if you can find where I said otherwise, please feel free to show me to be a lier.

FYI I have been involved in many system acquisitions and design, including that Passport system I spoke of, but not in a pecuniary way. you see, some of us contribute to our community through volunteering and support our government, because, at the end of the day, the government is of the people, and for the people. My profession is in health care, not selling radios. I don't care what system we buy, as long as it WORKS and we GET WHAT WE PAID FOR. This isn't the case in many situations that play our across the country and some of us want to change that for the better. And not put one dime in our pocket either, because at the end of the day, we all benefit when our government makes wise choices and we all suffer when foolish ones are made.

And as long as you are not paid, you are not responsible. (good safe place to be)
Of course your agency has probably made themselves ineligable for many grants.
I hope it works out for the best in the end.

In the Atlanta area, we all were sold on Smartnet as being the interoperability solution. It never materialized.

Why not?

Now we've been forced by the vendor to replace these systems, which did function quite well given the limitations on budgets during the initial RFP stages, with even more costly hardware from the same vendor peddling the same promises and yet, three years later, are also unfulfilled. We have fire stations closed because not enough money is in the bank to pay for staff because our superiors are told we HAVE to go P25 OR ELSE, and various other lies (such as the DTV excuse, the mysterious Federal mandate that doesn't exist, et al) that convinced our elected officials to spend funds that aren't there.

Guess you did not do such a good job correcting these lies?
They are easy to refute if you know the facts and present then rationally.
Again, I have heard the same "stories", but never first hand. AND I have been in many presentations by all the major vendors.

Now there are plenty of new radios and no one is on the other end to answer them because they are on furlough. The new radios and systems don't do anything the old ones couldn't do, and in fact, don't sound as good audio wise. All we are is that much poorer with not much to show for it.

And how is this a P25 issue?

for the record I don't care for any proprietary walled garden supported by a single vendor, as this locks you into playing their game forever and ever. One day we will learn from these mistakes.

Then why do you prefer it over the standard?

For the record, we have learned, (Back in the early 90's) and that is why so many people from the public safety community put their time (some compensated, and some volunteer) into the P25 standards process. (Maybe you don't know, but P25 is one of very few user driven standards.) (You are not the only one with noble goals)

One good thing will come out of this economy is it will force all of us to make more prudent decision and when the salesman makes his rounds, we will learn to just say NO, and do more independent research before buying into the latest pitch of the week.

Yes, I agree.
Whether that pitch comes from the vendor, or the local "Know-it-all"

Take care,

I always do.

And I knew you could not keep it short, or answer me directly. Does that make me a "Know-It-All"?:lol::lol::lol:

Have a good night, and try to have an open mind.

BTW, this is my last post in this thread, as it has moved very far from the original topic. (And I am working hard to respect the moderators requests)

 

[ILMRadioMan]

What failed was the infrastructure. It did not matter if it was 800 MHz, trunked, P25, conventional, Repeaters, or simplex base stations, when the site floods, or the tower falls you are off the air.
But thanks again for yet another off-topic rant.
BTW, do you know what type of system that are re-building there? Guess.

I would like to make a point to this.

I was in the Marine Corps during Katrina.

My unit was the manager of a Mobile (in a large truck) 6.3 P25 Motorola system.

We were called in to provide radio coverage in the area after Katrina (and we stuck it out through Rita)

1st, when we arrived, as NJAY said, the sites were flooded or knocked down. It would not have mattered what frequency or vendor was in there the same outcome would have occured.

2nd, being a P25 system, we had people come to us with other P25 radios and we put them on the air right then and there.


Also, I am one of 2 people that manage a 7.4 radio system here.

I can tell you that it is open to many vendors.

 

[SCPD]

Intermittent P25

DHS and others might not be as happy with the results. If FD and PD are wary of digital, a whole lot more testing is going to be needed. Just think how well your cellphone works when you leave your car window open when making a call, and that's wideband digital.

I don't think it's the mode as much as the frequency.

The feds use P25 all over the place without an issue, But they are at 160-170 meg. VHF.
I think that 800 meg is just too high of a band for dependable voice, no matter the mode. As you approach 1 Ghz, too many objects can reflect, refract and absorb the signal. And I question trying to implement 800/900 voice (any mode) in areas that are hilly or mountains. 800's all right for data, 'cuz the packet will just keep sending until the parity agrees. But it seems every new FD or PD P25 system seems to always be at 800. And then it's the mode, P25 or OpenSky or whatever, that looks bad when voice comms drop out.

Now of course I could be wrong, but there's my two cents worth.

 

[N_Jay]

I don't know what area you are in, but 800 MHz has been in common uses since the 1980's and there are a lot of systems out there working just fine.

Yes, there are some that have managed to be screwed up also. (They are the ones that get the news)

Like P25 today, there were plenty of "800 MHz can't work" fanatics then also. Some are still around.