Using DSD+ to find CAP+ LCNs

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theaton

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I'm new to DSD+ and am using it mostly to research new systems. I find it difficult to identify the LCN (LSNs) of the frequency I am decoding on Cap+ systems. Only the Channel Activity window seems to provide useful information in this regard, which itself is frustrating because it changes rapidly and doesn't record anything. At first I thought that the first LSNs to show up in the Channel Activity window when I start DSD+ applied to the monitored frequency, but this is not consistent. Is there a simple way to identify the LCN/LSNs of the frequency I'm monitoring?

A secondary puzzle not directly related to DSD+: I'm monitoring two nearby frequencies with DSD+ that are clearly related as the two frequencies of a Cap+ system (same TGs active at the same time, active GPS reports on the same mobiles, etc.). DSD+ shows 4 LSNs (1-4) while sitting on either frequency. But one frequency consistently shows Site 5 and Color Code 5, and the other consistently shows Site 1 and Color Code 11! I have carefully scanned the whole band, and there is nothing else related to this system. Has anyone seen a case like this? What am I to think??
 

sonm10

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When mapping out these type of systems, I use a scanner, DSD+ fastlane, and FCC license data. All three are essential for IDing these systems. I will enter a list of frequencies mined from FCC data into a scanner conventionally. Once I hit on something digital, I enter into DSD+.

The event log, channel window, and 1R DSD+ (Command line scrolling wIndow) all paint a picture. Type of system, flavor, Color Code, Etc. I would take a look especially at the scrolling command line window. Now a lot of the code I myself don't understand, but should be able to make out Cap+, DCC (digital color code) channel id, etc.

The other thing to check out - open DSD+ folder. Look for EVENT LOG file and the 1R LOG file. This will be your history.

IDK about the systems you're trying to ID - but the ones in my area, the REST channel rotate every few minutes. This is where the scanner comes handy - to help find where ever the REST channel went to. FCC license data helps too!


Once you identify all the info, make sure to update DSD+ files. You will need to edit .NETWORKS, .SITES, .SITE LOADER, .FREQUENCIES, .GROUPS
files.

EDIT: I think I know what you mean about the additional LSNs. DSD+ cannot tune to any additional frequencies unless identified and entered into the programed files. It will be like "go to channel x" but channel x is not available. You need to work hard to find any additional frequencies for each site, because it sounds like there are. The channel window is telling you the channel numbers of the unidentified frequency. Remember in DMR, every frequency has two slots, thereby two channels. The other thing it might be is private calls - I see this on the Cap+ system I monitor. There are additional channel numbers but no frequencies. I think (someone might need to educate me on this) those my be private calls or even data.
 
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mtindor

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I'm new to DSD+ and am using it mostly to research new systems. I find it difficult to identify the LCN (LSNs) of the frequency I am decoding on Cap+ systems. Only the Channel Activity window seems to provide useful information in this regard, which itself is frustrating because it changes rapidly and doesn't record anything. At first I thought that the first LSNs to show up in the Channel Activity window when I start DSD+ applied to the monitored frequency, but this is not consistent. Is there a simple way to identify the LCN/LSNs of the frequency I'm monitoring?

A secondary puzzle not directly related to DSD+: I'm monitoring two nearby frequencies with DSD+ that are clearly related as the two frequencies of a Cap+ system (same TGs active at the same time, active GPS reports on the same mobiles, etc.). DSD+ shows 4 LSNs (1-4) while sitting on either frequency. But one frequency consistently shows Site 5 and Color Code 5, and the other consistently shows Site 1 and Color Code 11! I have carefully scanned the whole band, and there is nothing else related to this system. Has anyone seen a case like this? What am I to think??

So you have two separate sites (1 and 5), each with 4 LSNs (two LCNs -- two frequencies), and they are related (same talkgroup activity at the same times). Makes sense for a multisite Cap+ system.

Obviously, the two frequencies you have been listening to (one from each site). Although likely that two-channel Cap+ sites will have LCN 1 and LCN 2, they could be LCN 5 and LCN 9 for example, if that is how the sysadmin configured them.

Time to look up FCC data and find other frequencies associated with those site locations. You didn't mention anything about what FCC licenses you believe are associated with these sites, and that would be helpful in instructing you where to look next.

If you sit on any Cap+ freq long enough for a voice transmission to occur, at that time you will see a notification in the main DSDPlus window that specifically tells you which LCN it is. Without voice activity though, determining LCNs becomes much harder. So you want to monitor these systems during their peak days/hours. If you do that, and if you know for sure the agency and cross reference it to FCC licenses, it should be fairly simple to determine the other frequency associated with each of those two sites. Once you know freqs/lcns for a site and you populate DSDPlus.Networks, DSDPlus.Sites and DSDPlus.Frequencies , you should have no trouble tracking each site.

As is the case with all Cap+ sites, since they do not broadcast a System/Network ID, you have to make one up of your own to add them to the appropriate DSDPlus.* files. Or, if the system is known and is in the DB, you can use RR's SID as the system ID.

Example: local to me - First Energy Sammis Plant - First Energy - Sammis Plant Trunking System, Stratton, Ohio - Scanner Frequencies

Note that the ?sid=10126 in the RRDB. This has NOTHING to do with the actual trunked system configuration. But it is useful to use the sid as the fake network/system ID when adding the system, site and frequencies to the DSDPlus.* files.

In my example, the fake system/network ID is going to be 10126

DSDPlus.Networks
; line format: protocol, networkID, "network name"[, TIIIareaLength]
Cap+,10126,"First Energy Sammis"

DSDPlus.Sites
; line format: protocol, networkID, siteNumber, "site name"
Cap+,10126,2,"Hilltop"

DSDPlus.frequencies
; protocol, networkID, siteNumber, OTAchannelNumber, TXfrequency, RXfrequency, sortOrder
Cap+,10126,2,1,451.275,456.275,1 ; LCN 1
Cap+,10126,2,2,451.275,456.275,2 ; LCN 1
Cap+,10126,2,3,452.075,457.075,3 ; LCN 2
Cap+,10126,2,4,452.075,457.075,4 ; LCN 2
Cap+,10126,2,5,451.200,456.200,5 ; LCN 3
Cap+,10126,2,6,451.200,456.200,6 ; LCN 3

Notice that in the DSDPlus.frequencies file the OTAchannelNumber is the LSN (not the LCN). And you don't have to include each LSN, but you need to include one for each LCN/freq. You could just do:

Cap+,10126,2,1,451.275,456.275,1 ; LCN 1
Cap+,10126,2,3,452.075,457.075,3 ; LCN 2
Cap+,10126,2,5,451.200,456.200,5 ; LCN 3

Mike
 

theaton

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Thanks for the comments. I've generally had luck determining which LCN/LSNs correspond to a frequency on Cap+ systems with DSD+, but on the system I mentioned I'm getting inconsistent results. On each of the two frequencies it sometimes shows every sign of being on LCN 1 (LSN 1-2) while at other times it shows every sign of being on LCN 2 (LSN 3-4).

The system in question defies all the normal tricks for identifying a system. The two frequencies are not licensed to the same entity. I suspect the system is used for tracking and communicating with UPS trucks. Most of the traffic is GPS coordinates with speed and direction (with locations all over the southern Wasatch Front), but there are also 6 active TGs heard on both frequencies.

One frequency is licensed to a UPS warehouse in the valley and is the only frequency on the license. The other frequency is licensed to Peak Wireless, which is a communication service provider in Utah (mostly using NXDN). The license site is on a nearby mtn. None of the other frequencies on that license are active. I've scanned the whole band and found nothing else with similar transmissions and TGs. I found these active frequencies while doing a thorough band scan and recording every active frequency. There are a few other unidentified systems and conventional DMR channels I'm trying to track down, but they have weaker signals, are far less active, and don't share any TGs or GPS readings with this mystery system. So it's a puzzle!
 

theaton

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P.S. Another evidence against this being two sites of the same system is that neither frequency ever shows any neighbor sites in DSD+. Everything fits a Cap+ single site except for the conflicting site numbers and color codes on the two frequencies. I wonder if it was simply set up improperly.
 

theaton

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Here's a DSD+ screenshot for one of the frequencies. Traffic is a little slow today (Saturday). Things look the same on the other frequency except it shows "Cap+ Site:5 DCC:5".
452-8500.JPG
 

theaton

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Another frustration is that DSD+ identifies all Cap+ systems as networkID=0, so you can only read data for one Cap+ system in the DSDPlus.Networks/Sites/frequencies files. Has everyone found this to be the case? All other system types have unique networkIDs so that you can enter multiple systems in the DSDPlus files and have them each display properly while scanning them. With Cap+ systems you need separate files for every system. (I deleted all Cap+ references in my DSDPlus files when I generated the windows above.)
 

Reconrider

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Another frustration is that DSD+ identifies all Cap+ systems as networkID=0, so you can only read data for one Cap+ system in the DSDPlus.Networks/Sites/frequencies files.
From my understanding, CAP+ systems do not have networkIDs. They're all systems # 0. Go into your frequencies file, and manually give them another number besides 0 and you can start to separate them going forward that way. Do the same thing in the networks, sites and siteloader files.

I have a few systems with a single frequency cap+ "system" and I've had to start assigning other numbers besides the 0 they all use.
 

theaton

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How do you get DSD+ to recognize Cap+ systems in the files that have a network ID other than 0? If I list each Cap+ system with a pseudo ID, is there a simple way to tell DSD+ which ID to use at a given time?
 

Reconrider

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How do you get DSD+ to recognize Cap+ systems in the files that have a network ID other than 0? If I list each Cap+ system with a pseudo ID, is there a simple way to tell DSD+ which ID to use at a given time?
You assign a pseudo networkID in the DSDPlus.frequencies file. Read the top part of that file, and it will tell you what info you need to enter. Where you see "networkID" is where you will enter a number besides 0. I typically start with 1 and go up from there on each confirmed systems that I know are not the same.
 

theaton

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I've tried that before, but DSD+ only recognizes Cap+ entries where networkID=0. Why clog the files with data that DSD+ never uses? It's frustrating when DSD+ lists system/site names and frequencies in its windows that don't apply to the frequency I'm monitoring.

If I assign networkID=5 to a Cap+ system, is there a way to make DSD+ use that instead of whatever system (if any) I've listed with networkID=0?
 

BM82557

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Here are examples of my files for a multi-site CAP+ system in my area --

DSDPLUS.Networks file --

CAP+,8888,"CAP+ Procter and Gamble System"

DSDPLUS.Sites file --

CAP+,8888,1,"Site 1 Cap+ Procter and Gamble System"
CAP+,8888,2,"Site 2 Cap+ Procter and Gamble System"

DSDPLUS.Frequencies file --

;Cap+ Procter and Gamble System Site 1

Cap+, 8888, 1, 3, 451.9750, 0.0, 0, 1
Cap+, 8888, 1, 5, 452.1750, 0.0, 0, 1
Cap+, 8888, 1, 9, 452.8500, 0.0, 0, 1
Cap+, 8888, 1, 11, 451.3000, 0.0, 0, 1
Cap+, 8888, 1, 13, 451.4500, 0.0, 0, 1
Cap+, 8888, 1, 15, 451.8250, 0.0, 0, 1


;Cap+ Procter and Gamble System Site 2

Cap+, 8888, 2, 1, 451.3250, 0.0, 0, 1
Cap+, 8888, 2, 3, 451.5000, 0.0, 0, 1
Cap+, 8888, 2, 5, 451.7250, 0.0, 0, 1
Cap+, 8888, 2, 7, 452.6250, 0.0, 0, 1
Cap+, 8888, 2, 9, 452.8000, 0.0, 0, 1
Cap+, 8888, 2, 11, 451.9000, 0.0, 0, 1
Cap+, 8888, 2, 13, 452.0500, 0.0, 0, 1
Cap+, 8888, 2, 15, 452.2000, 0.0, 0, 1
 

theaton

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How do you get DSD+ to pay any attention to a system with networkID=8888 when it thinks all Cap+ systems have networkID=0? That is my question. Any listings with networkID <> 0 seem like dead weight in the files. :rolleyes:
 

Kazzaw

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DSDPlus picks up the frequency which you program in. If it sees a Cap+ on 460.0000 and you've programed a network ID of 1234 to that frequency, it'll display Network ID 1234

DSDPlus doesn't think all Cap+ systems have a Network ID of 0, all Cap+ systems don't use a network ID. Not a DSD problem
 

theaton

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DSDPlus picks up the frequency which you program in. If it sees a Cap+ on 460.0000 and you've programed a network ID of 1234 to that frequency, it'll display Network ID 1234

DSDPlus doesn't think all Cap+ systems have a Network ID of 0, all Cap+ systems don't use a network ID. Not a DSD problem

Okay, I think I understand what you guys are saying, BUT ... Currently I'm running DSD+ connected to an old scanner with a discriminator tap, and DSD+ has no idea what frequency the scanner is tuned to. The only connection between my computer and the scanner is the audio cable. I'm new to DSD+ and have only been using it to research new trunked systems as I travel. I realize that DSD+ has more capabilities than this, but I haven't tried them and may need additional equipment to do so.

For trunked systems that broadcast a unique SysID, DSD+ is successful at identifying them in the files and listing the proper system, site, frequencies, etc. But for Cap+ systems I'm stuck with networkID=0. I hope that makes sense.
 

Kazzaw

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Ah, this makes much more sense now. You won't be able to differentiate networks if your using a discriminator tap. Best investment I even made was a SDR dongle and DSDPlus fastlane. Under 100 and makes discovering and tracking new systems incredibly easier
 
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