Voice Message Notification

[wa2chj]

So if you open your Message Box (red button), you see the messages? Do they have an open envelope or closed envelope icon?

I wonder if it works differently depending on system type. I've only tried with P25 trunking....

I cleared them all out, I THINK they were closed, but I didn't pay specific attention to that. I'll post again when I have more...it shouldn't be too long.
That didn't take long, I have more coming in now...I was wrong...they show as open...probably because they played as they were coming in.
Mine are P25 trunking, also, on the Charlotte, NC UASI system.

 

[N6ML]

I cleared them all out, I THINK they were closed, but I didn't pay specific attention to that. I'll post again when I have more...it shouldn't be too long.
That didn't take long, I have more coming in now...I was wrong...they show as open...probably because they played as they were coming in.
Mine are P25 trunking, also, on the Charlotte, NC UASI system.

That should only happen if "Unread Msg Option" for the knob position is set to "Speaker Off". Make sure that it's set to "Always" if you want the messages to be considered unread whether or not they're played "live". I know you mentioned "Always" in one of your earlier posts, but it wasn't clear which option you were referring to. "Unread Msg Alert Option" has an "Always" value too.

● Unread Msg Option

• Definition
  As there is Voice Call, text message and image unread in the pager, the pager will regularly show the “Unread Remind” text and ringtone at the Status Bar to remind that there is still the unread message. This setting is used to determine that in what states of the pager, the received message will be considered as the unread message.
• Options
  1. Speaker Off (Default) - Only the message which is not played through the speaker during the receiving will be considered as the unread message.
  2. Always - As long as there is the message received, it will be considered as the unread message.

 

[wa2chj]

That should only happen if "Unread Msg Option" for the knob position is set to "Speaker Off". Make sure that it's set to "Always" if you want the messages to be considered unread whether or not they're played "live". I know you mentioned "Always" in one of your earlier posts, but it wasn't clear which option you were referring to. "Unread Msg Alert Option" has an "Always" value too.

● Unread Msg Option

• Definition
  As there is Voice Call, text message and image unread in the pager, the pager will regularly show the “Unread Remind” text and ringtone at the Status Bar to remind that there is still the unread message. This setting is used to determine that in what states of the pager, the received message will be considered as the unread message.
• Options
  1. Speaker Off (Default) - Only the message which is not played through the speaker during the receiving will be considered as the unread message.
  2. Always - As long as there is the message received, it will be considered as the unread message.

BINGO! Thank you. MSG ALERT was set to ALWAYS, but UNREAD MSG OPTION was set to SPEAKER OFF. I haven't had another alert since I changed it, and I'll post when I do.
Will this also make the message counter in the data line work?

Thanks again!

Scott
EMT-P-CC
WA2CHJ

 

[N6ML]

BINGO! Thank you. MSG ALERT was set to ALWAYS, but UNREAD MSG OPTION was set to SPEAKER OFF. I haven't had another alert since I changed it, and I'll post when I do.
Will this also make the message counter in the data line work?

Ah-ha! Yes, you should I speech-bubble icon with two numbers after it, when you have unread messages. I'm not sure what the second number is (maybe text messages?), but the first one should be the number of unread voice messages.

 

[wa2chj]

Ah-ha! Yes, you should I speech-bubble icon with two numbers after it, when you have unread messages. I'm not sure what the second number is (maybe text messages?), but the first one should be the number of unread voice messages.

They both (the LED and the data line) work correctly with that change! Thank you very much for the help, as these parameters are not intuitively obvious in their effects!
Now, if I could just find a way to stop the pager from recording THREE messages for every alert, it would be working the way I think it should. It still records: a beep...the actual alert...and a beep for each alert. As has been suggested before, I have played with ALL the timing...Delay N, record delay, voice buffering, etc., but nothing seems to have any affect on how this records. I'm beginning to think it's an issue with the Charlotte UASI P25 System, rather than the pager. My next step is to run the pager on the VHF simulcast frequency, and see what it records there. Since all versions of the Minitors have no problem recording just the alert on the VHF side, I'm assuming the G5 will record correctly there, too, and it is a P25 issue.
Thanks, again, for your help!

Scott
EMT-P-CC
WA2CHJ

 

[N6ML]

They both (the LED and the data line) work correctly with that change! Thank you very much for the help, as these parameters are not intuitively obvious in their effects!

Excellent!

Now, if I could just find a way to stop the pager from recording THREE messages for every alert, it would be working the way I think it should. It still records: a beep...the actual alert...and a beep for each alert. As has been suggested before, I have played with ALL the timing...Delay N, record delay, voice buffering, etc., but nothing seems to have any affect on how this records. I'm beginning to think it's an issue with the Charlotte UASI P25 System, rather than the pager. My next step is to run the pager on the VHF simulcast frequency, and see what it records there. Since all versions of the Minitors have no problem recording just the alert on the VHF side, I'm assuming the G5 will record correctly there, too, and it is a P25 issue.

I get that too... the tones are sent one one message, then the voice dispatch. Sometimes, if the dispatcher pauses for a second, the voice get split up into multiple messages too. I've always assumed that they use some sort of VOX, and it's actually terminating transmission and starting up again. With P25 trunking, the end of the transmission is actually defined in control data, as opposed to waiting for a carrier to drop. It would be nice (IMO) if the firmware could "stitch together" voice messages on the same talkgroup, with some sort of timeout.

 

[k3sls]

Excellent!
I get that too... the tones are sent one one message, then the voice dispatch. Sometimes, if the dispatcher pauses for a second, the voice get split up into multiple messages too. I've always assumed that they use some sort of VOX, and it's actually terminating transmission and starting up again. With P25 trunking, the end of the transmission is actually defined in control data, as opposed to waiting for a carrier to drop. It would be nice (IMO) if the firmware could "stitch together" voice messages on the same talkgroup, with some sort of timeout.

As I've responded previously...several times...the beeps are not coming from the transmission. You don't hear them when listening live, only on playback. The Gx is inserting the beeps on playback so you can identify the end of a message, then it's followed by a new message. Test it yourself by using the voice memo function to record at least two messages. Play them back...you'll hear beeps at the end of each...and you know there was no beep when you recorded the message. And no, you can't turn that "feature" off.

The other issue regarding multiple messages due to the carrier drop can be resolved using the timer delay functions. You have to experiment to find the correct setting(s) for your use and the habits of the system users.

 

[N6ML]

As I've responded previously...several times...the beeps are not coming from the transmission. You don't hear them when listening live, only on playback. The Gx is inserting the beeps on playback so you can identify the end of a message, then it's followed by a new message. Test it yourself by using the voice memo function to record at least two messages. Play them back...you'll hear beeps at the end of each...and you know there was no beep when you recorded the message. And no, you can't turn that "feature" off.

I'm not sure that that's what Scott is referring to. In my case (at least), the tones that ARE played on the air at the start of each dispatch (by the regional fire dispatch center) ARE recorded as "voice messages". This is separate from the tones and the "doodle-deep" sound when replaying stored messages.

The other issue regarding multiple messages due to the carrier drop can be resolved using the timer delay functions. You have to experiment to find the correct setting(s) for your use and the habits of the system users.

... but there are no equivalent options (that I know of) for P25 trunking.

 

[krokus]

... I was afraid I was going to wear out the buttons erasing all the messages as it records three for every activation...one beep...the message...and another beep, and we are a busy department so deleting 20-30 messages a day is not unusual.

You do not have to delete the stored messages, they will be deleted as new messages are stored, and more space is needed. If there are any you want to save, you can lock them.

Sent using Tapatalk

 

[k3sls]

I'm not sure that that's what Scott is referring to. In my case (at least), the tones that ARE played on the air at the start of each dispatch (by the regional fire dispatch center) ARE recorded as "voice messages". This is separate from the tones and the "doodle-deep" sound when replaying stored messages.

... but there are no equivalent options (that I know of) for P25 trunking.

If the tones are being transmitted, why would they be treated as anything other than audio as is the voice portion? How would the Gx filter the tone out...length of tone?...frequency?...shape of the tone (sine, sawtooth, etc)...beginning or end of transmission? I see no reasonable way to identify and filter all possible extraneous audio that could accompany voice.

As to the carrier drop issues, change your "binding feature" for the knob position. The various types of delay become selectable depending on the sub-features enabled. Experimentation will be required to find the correct settings.

 

[N6ML]

If the tones are being transmitted, why would they be treated as anything other than audio as is the voice portion? How would the Gx filter the tone out...length of tone?...frequency?...shape of the tone (sine, sawtooth, etc)...beginning or end of transmission? I see no reasonable way to identify and filter all possible extraneous audio that could accompany voice.

I'm was just noting that they're recorded as a separate message from the voiced distpatch.

As to the carrier drop issues, change your "binding feature" for the knob position. The various types of delay become selectable depending on the sub-features enabled. Experimentation will be required to find the correct settings.

Binding Feature implies 2-Tone or Call Alert, neither of which apply to the P25 trunking system that I'm monitoring.

 

[k3sls]

I'm was just noting that they're recorded as a separate message from the voiced distpatch.



Binding Feature implies 2-Tone or Call Alert, neither of which apply to the P25 trunking system that I'm monitoring.

You may be looking in the wrong location. Binding feature is available on P25 in the zone/know positions. Note the screenshot included. Change the "binding feature" pulldown and experiment with the "reset mode". The additional choices vary with the reset mode selection.

 

[N6ML]

You may be looking in the wrong location. Binding feature is available on P25 in the zone/know positions. Note the screenshot included. Change the "binding feature" pulldown and experiment with the "reset mode". The additional choices vary with the reset mode selection.

... and the available options for Binding Feature are .... ???

 

[wa2chj]

K3SLS & N6ML...

Thanks for all your input. You're both partially correct in what you think my problems/symptoms are. I certainly didn't want to start a disagreement about this, as except for the lack of an unread message LED, I assumed that my problems were a result of incorrect programming on my part more than anything else.

First, let me clarify that the tones I am talking about are NOT the QCII alert tones transmitted by dispatch. The way I have my pager set up, it doesn't start recording until after the alert - which isn't complete until after the tones have gone out. The only time it ever records QCII tones is if multiple stations/departments are being dispatched with us, and this is not a problem.

I also realize these ARE NOT tones coming over the air.

The tones I am talking about are a beep before and after every voice message. Nine times out of ten there is a beep before and after each message and they are recorded as THREE separate messages. If there is ONE alert, there are THREE messages recorded. TWO alerts, 6 messages, THREE alerts, 9 messages and so on. Occasionally, (and this may be important!) there is only ONE beep message with the voice message.

Why that MAY be important is something one of you said that caused a light bulb to go on in my head. Unlike on a conventional VHF channel (which we still simulcast dispatch on so our Minitors will alert) when the carrier drops - or dispatch unkeys, you can't hear that that's what happened due to it being digial. If, on the P25 system dispatch is unkeying between the QCII tones, and the dispatch audio, the pager might have picked up the tail end of the QCII carrier and the drop and record a beep. Then record the message. Then record the drop from the voice message and insert the beep again. That would explain the Beep, MSG, Beep series I get. It may, occasionally miss the QCII drop beep and then I get TWO messages instead of three. It is also a P25 Simulcast system, which might also be complicating how the pager sees the signals. That being the case, there is probably nothing that can be done other than ignoring the superfluous messages.

As for the binding feature...when I was setting up my pager to decode QCII on the P25 system, Ray from Ray's Pagers said I have to program the binding feature the way I have it of the tones won't decode. I played with that for quite a while when I first got the pager, and it still recorded the two tone messages for every alert.

Thanks, both of you, for all your comments!

Scott
EMT-P-CC
WA2CHJ

 

[N6ML]

The tones I am talking about are a beep before and after every voice message. Nine times out of ten there is a beep before and after each message and they are recorded as THREE separate messages. If there is ONE alert, there are THREE messages recorded. TWO alerts, 6 messages, THREE alerts, 9 messages and so on. Occasionally, (and this may be important!) there is only ONE beep message with the voice message.

Why that MAY be important is something one of you said that caused a light bulb to go on in my head. Unlike on a conventional VHF channel (which we still simulcast dispatch on so our Minitors will alert) when the carrier drops - or dispatch unkeys, you can't hear that that's what happened due to it being digial. If, on the P25 system dispatch is unkeying between the QCII tones, and the dispatch audio, the pager might have picked up the tail end of the QCII carrier and the drop and record a beep. Then record the message. Then record the drop from the voice message and insert the beep again. That would explain the Beep, MSG, Beep series I get. It may, occasionally miss the QCII drop beep and then I get TWO messages instead of three. It is also a P25 Simulcast system, which might also be complicating how the pager sees the signals. That being the case, there is probably nothing that can be done other than ignoring the superfluous messages.

Is it possible that the message is actually a very short period of silence, and the "beep" is actually the pager's usual "start of new message" tone? You could tell the difference by playing back the message from the message box (red button) vs. using the play button in the middle of the select knob. In the Message Box case, it should play the message audio first, followed by the "doodle-deep" sound.

If it really is an audio recording with some sort of tone, it must be something that's coming over the air. It's possible that it's a fragment of the QC tone, as you suggest.

As for the binding feature...when I was setting up my pager to decode QCII on the P25 system, Ray from Ray's Pagers said I have to program the binding feature the way I have it of the tones won't decode. I played with that for quite a while when I first got the pager, and it still recorded the two tone messages for every alert.

In my case, the QC tones are not sent over the P25 audio. I only hear them on the linked old VHF FM repeater, so I can't use the Sub Group Binding Feature (when monitoring P25) (AFAIK). They do send other tones (I'm not sure what they're called) at the start of each dispatch (usually three bursts of a single tone - "doo doo doo") and those get sent over P25 audio, and recorded as a separate message for me.

 

[k3sls]

I

In my case, the QC tones are not sent over the P25 audio. I only hear them on the linked old VHF FM repeater, so I can't use the Sub Group Binding Feature (when monitoring P25) (AFAIK). They do send other tones (I'm not sure what they're called) at the start of each dispatch (usually three bursts of a single tone - "doo doo doo") and those get sent over P25 audio, and recorded as a separate message for me.

If you have multiple messages on VHF QCII look at PPS D5 for knob function reset mode. Delay n reset should fix this if you choose a delay time exceeding the longest carrier drop time. If you're listing to QCII linked over P25, perhaps the better choice is return to listening on VHF.

 

[N6ML]

If you have multiple messages on VHF QCII look at PPS D5 for knob function reset mode. Delay n reset should fix this if you choose a delay time exceeding the longest carrier drop time. If you're listing to QCII linked over P25, perhaps the better choice is return to listening on VHF.

I'm listening to P25 trunked, and the QC tones are not transmitted there.

Listening on VHF is not really an option. The signal is not strong enough to be reliable on the internal antenna in the G5. It's scratchy at best, inside my house. P25 on 770MHz is mostly reliable.

It wouldn't actually solve the problem for me anyway. QC tones are only sent to page battalion chiefs (for major incidents). I want to record all dispatch traffic.

It's a relatively minor annoyance (for me) that dispatch messages get fragmented.

 

[wa2chj]

Is it possible that the message is actually a very short period of silence, and the "beep" is actually the pager's usual "start of new message" tone? You could tell the difference by playing back the message from the message box (red button) vs. using the play button in the middle of the select knob. In the Message Box case, it should play the message audio first, followed by the "doodle-deep" sound.

If it really is an audio recording with some sort of tone, it must be something that's coming over the air. It's possible that it's a fragment of the QC tone, as you suggest.



In my case, the QC tones are not sent over the P25 audio. I only hear them on the linked old VHF FM repeater, so I can't use the Sub Group Binding Feature (when monitoring P25) (AFAIK). They do send other tones (I'm not sure what they're called) at the start of each dispatch (usually three bursts of a single tone - "doo doo doo") and those get sent over P25 audio, and recorded as a separate message for me.

Yes. I believe everything you said above is correct, and I tried what you suggested about playing the messages back using the push button on the knob, and it only plays the actual voice messages and the end of messages beep, NOT all the other beeps (doodle-deeps) that are recorded as messages in the message box.
Oddly, I've only ever played the messages back using the message box, and I didn't realize the two ways work differently! That, more-or-less, solves my problem of dealing with all the superfluous beeps.

Our QCII tones are simulcast from the VHF system to the P25 simulcast system. It, for whatever reason, introduces quite a bit of warble into the tones so the selection of decode tones on the P25 side is slightly different as it is not just XXX.X Hz. It is XXX.X-YYY.Y Hz where the band width is around 30 Hz, Our tones come through pretty well, and the pager has never missed decoding. Some of the tones come over horribly distorted for other stations, and I don't know how it does on them. Our tones sound almost as good on P25 as VHF.

We also get our calls via Active 911 on our phones, and some might think the pager is not really necessary, but I have my pager set up priority scanning the Dispatch TG and all our Ops TGs because as soon as we're dispatched, we are moved to an Ops TG, and the only way to hear what is going on on the Ops TG is with the pager or our department issued M XTS portables, but that's usually sitting my car.

Scott

 

[k3sls]

... and the available options for Binding Feature are .... ???

Too many combinations to quote here. Some relate to QCII tone handling, others relate to voice handling...in both cases at the end of the call when carrier drops. I suggest you copy a P25 knob position to an empty knob slot and experiment with the settings. You can always delete later without disturbing the other working positions

 

[k3sls]

K3SLS & N6ML...

As for the binding feature...when I was setting up my pager to decode QCII on the P25 system, Ray from Ray's Pagers said I have to program the binding feature the way I have it of the tones won't decode. I played with that for quite a while when I first got the pager, and it still recorded the two tone messages for every alert.

Thanks, both of you, for all your comments!

Scott
EMT-P-CC
WA2CHJ

I suggest you experiment further with the binding feature under P25 as one option relates specifically to what happens when the carrier drops after a tone sequence. There are at least 4 sub-group choices for tones if I remember correctly...and timers for the several conditions. It will take some time and patience since you have to wait for calls, but I think the tools are there to resolve the issue.

Good luck!