Warren P25 Simulcast?

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jagr707

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This may be all be a programming mistake, but is the Warren MPSCS subsystem supposed to be sumulcasting? I was just monitoring the Warren system and a 80xx TG came up and sounded like DPD!!! Didn't catch the TGID completely but the freq was 855.48750. I heard somehting about West Dispatch and never heard from it again. Any ideas?

Jason

EDIT: Forgot I was logging, the TGID was 8305 which is DDPW?
 
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seamusg

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jagr707 said:
This may be all be a programming mistake, but is the Warren MPSCS subsystem supposed to be sumulcasting? I was just monitoring the Warren system and a 80xx TG came up and sounded like DPD!!! Didn't catch the TGID completely but the freq was 855.48750. I heard somehting about West Dispatch and never heard from it again. Any ideas?

Jason
The new warren system is only using CC 854.4875 and vc 856.0375, 855.4875 is still the old system. I've been monitoring it with pro96com and the highest TG I've seen is 767. Warren is not part of the MPSCS, it is only Warren and Centerline. There won't be any real traffic on it till next week.
 

jagr707

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Thats what I thought! Weird, I'm using BCD396T AVC and it logged another TGID; 8186 on 854.4875! Im going to reload my scanner and see what happens.

Jason
 

seamusg

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jagr707 said:
Thats what I thought! Weird, I'm using BCD396T AVC and it logged another TGID; 8186 on 854.4875! Im going to reload my scanner and see what happens.

Jason
I get problems with my 796 if I have the old and new system in the same bank. Warren is currently running two seperate systems. The new one is CC 854.4875 and VC 856.0375, the old system is the other 5 freqs, and still rotating the CC every night. The new one is running at the Warren City Center at 12 1/2 Mile and Van Dyke. The old system is running from the backup site at the hospital on 12 Mile. I believe you have to program these as two systems for another week.
 
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Thunderbolt

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It will be most interesting to see how this all pans out in Macomb County. I am sure that Warren will have complete access to both the MPSCS and Macomb County Systems. That said, they might even use a special patch to communicate with Oakland County, if their OpenSky system ever gets off the ground.
 

Alpha432

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Opensky System

I was origionally told end of November for the Opensky system to launch in the O.C. Now I am told by my Captain that is will not be untill March.
 

KB8UYC

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Alpha432 said:
I was origionally told end of November for the Opensky system to launch in the O.C. Now I am told by my Captain that is will not be untill March.


He said the bad word......

I hate that system, why? Not because we cannot monitor it but because 1) M/A Com cannot do nothing right. 2) Oakland County is cheating the residence of that fine county out of a lot of money. 3) The system was already suppose to be online and still is not.

Sounds like Oakland County bit off a bit more than they could chew. Think about it, they could have already been using the MPSCS system. Oh well they will learn. I hope the firefighters are ready for a lot of missed messages(actually I pray that that never ever happens) but it will and the fire departments will pull out and probably go MPSCS

I wonder if the Residence actually know how much money Oakland County has wasted that was theirs??
 

seamusg

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SEMTTP said:
He said the bad word......

I hate that system, why? Not because we cannot monitor it but because 1) M/A Com cannot do nothing right. 2) Oakland County is cheating the residence of that fine county out of a lot of money. 3) The system was already suppose to be online and still is not.

Sounds like Oakland County bit off a bit more than they could chew. Think about it, they could have already been using the MPSCS system. Oh well they will learn. I hope the firefighters are ready for a lot of missed messages(actually I pray that that never ever happens) but it will and the fire departments will pull out and probably go MPSCS

I wonder if the Residence actually know how much money Oakland County has wasted that was theirs??
It looks like Macomb will be on the MPSCS system in 1 year, with Oackland's record, possibly Macomb will have their system on line first
 

jagr707

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Wow, opensky got pushed back to March? I remember hearing September was the deadline a while back. I'm just glad I don't live in Oakland. After reading why they chose M/A com over MPSCS it sounds like they were just chosing it becasue it is a neat experiment over overall functionality to the end user. IMHO the firefighter on the ground could care less if his signal is IP based and routed as long as it works when he needs it. This would include calling other agencies for help if needed. I can't see all the problems they are having adding to anyones confidence.

Wow this got sidetracked. Now I am just wondering how hard would it be for Warren to integrate with the rest of the state or county if they chose to.


Jason
 

KB8UYC

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jagr707 said:
Wow, opensky got pushed back to March? I remember hearing September was the deadline a while back. I'm just glad I don't live in Oakland. After reading why they chose M/A com over MPSCS it sounds like they were just chosing it becasue it is a neat experiment over overall functionality to the end user. IMHO the firefighter on the ground could care less if his signal is IP based and routed as long as it works when he needs it. This would include calling other agencies for help if needed. I can't see all the problems they are having adding to anyones confidence.

Wow this got sidetracked. Now I am just wondering how hard would it be for Warren to integrate with the rest of the state or county if they chose to.


Jason


Wont be hard at all. If Warren is starting a MPSCS Sub-System then it will be part of the MPSCS and all other users will be allowed to use the towers. I thought that is what they were doing anyway?
 

Alpha432

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Open Sky

I would rather have a different system than the opensky just because of the things that I have heard about it on here. It is SOOO expensive. $4,000 just for a prep X the 90 man department ( we are each supposed to get our own), not to mention the base units at each station and the rigs and the P.D. Millions of dollars for exactely what someone put on here. A "neat" sounding experimental system. I don't care if the transmission is VOIP, I just want it to work if my life or other peoples lives depends on it like when I am in a ripping house fire or in the basement of a commercial building or when I am all the way at a far away Hospital. I would be totally satisfied with the MPSCS system or a system like Downriver has, Motorola Type 2 Smartzone. I have heard bad things about it on here, and not much about it from people I work with because no one has ever heard of it.
 

jagr707

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seamusg said:
The new warren system is only using CC 854.4875 and vc 856.0375, 855.4875 is still the old system. I've been monitoring it with pro96com and the highest TG I've seen is 767. Warren is not part of the MPSCS, it is only Warren and Centerline. There won't be any real traffic on it till next week.

Not according to him. I would like to find out though, I'm just learning myself. It seems kind of a waste to have a seperate system when you could work with everyone else.

Jason
 

seamusg

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jagr707 said:
Not according to him. I would like to find out though, I'm just learning myself. It seems kind of a waste to have a seperate system when you could work with everyone else.

Jason
Right now Warren is just an upgrase to it's old system. If it was a part of the MPSCS system Warren would have to give their freqs to the State, I doubt if Warren would do that. Also the Sys ID is 19A not 796 which would say it is a seperate system. Also a P25 system is easily connected to something else even a phone. Right now noone I know will say anything about future plans for interconnecting to the Macomb subsystem of MPSCS. When I ask all I get is I KNOW NOTHING. Remember Warren is the third largest and probably the youngest (1957) city for its size. If you have ever watched Warren politics, it's a real show!!!
 
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KB8UYC

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"The 800 megahertz digital system is the same one that Macomb County Sheriff's officials are planning to install for $13 million to cover their patrolled areas of the county. It could be in place by 2006"

While Warren may not be MPSCS yet, it is my impression that once Macomb County comes online that Warren will intergrate their system as another MPSCS Sub-System.

By Tony Scotta
Macomb Daily Staff Writer

A terrorist attack occurs in Macomb County and five zealous police and fire agencies respond, barking in radio calls for additional help to their colleagues from other departments on scene.

The problem: The radios are incompatible and work as a barrier rather than an aid.

It's a scenario Warren Police Commissioner James Vohs said is a real problem, but one his city has been assigned $5.9 million to help fix -- at least locally.

The city has been appointed the lead agency to establish a unified communications system for emergency crews in Macomb, Oakland, St. Clair, Lapeer and Livingston counties, U.S. Sens. Debbie Stabenow, D-Lansing, and Carl Levin, D-Detroit, announced Thursday.

"It's going to allow cities and county officials to get on the same radio system so that we can move information to everybody on the same level," said Vohs, who had previously served as Warren's police chief for six years.

"Right now, for instance, Warren is operating on an 800 megahertz analog system, while the county is operating on an even lower bandwidth. T

he real problem comes in if we were to have a natural disaster or terrorist attack and everyone showed up to help. Nobody could really talk to each other (on one system)."

The federal monies, part of the Justice Department's Community Oriented Policing Services program, or COPS, were given to 23 communities nationwide that submitted grant applications. The grant specifications had challenged applicants to demonstrate ways in which new technologies and operating methods could better communications.

In all, the department doled out $80 million this year, but cities must provide a 25 percent match for the funds.

Warren officials plan to keep about $4 million of the grant to upgrade their 800 megahertz analog radio system to a $4.8 million digital system, Vohs said. The Warren share will have to be approved by city officials, but Vohs believes it will pass muster because the current system will be obsolete in a couple of years anyway.

The 800 megahertz digital system is the same one that Macomb County Sheriff's officials are planning to install for $13 million to cover their patrolled areas of the county. It could be in place by 2006.

"To me, it's a no-brainer," Vohs said. "If city officials vote it down now, they essentially throw away $4 million because we'll need to buy it sooner or later. We'd rather buy it now on 20 cents on the dollar."

The rest of the grant, to be doled out by Warren, will likely include $1 million to Oakland County to upgrade their radio units, and other smaller awards for upgrades in the five-county area. The overall proposal was to tackle $8 million in identified, needed communications flaws in the region, Vohs said.

"This will not solve the entire five-county communications problem, but it's a start," Vohs said.

Sens. Levin and Stabenow both agreed the monies are an important first step.

"I personally have heard the stories from our first responders in this region who tell of fire captains wearing four different radios around their necks in order to communicate with neighboring responders and agencies," Levin said. "This grant will address the glaring lack of communication challenging the region's first responders and as a result will significantly contribute to our security."

Said Stabenow: "This grant for Warren will aid the southeast Michigan region, and it will help set standards and resolve problems that will benefit communities across the state and nation."
 

toydriver_det

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SEMTTP said:
He said the bad word......

I hate that system, why? Not because we cannot monitor it but because 1) M/A Com cannot do nothing right. 2) Oakland County is cheating the residence of that fine county out of a lot of money. 3) The system was already suppose to be online and still is not.

Sounds like Oakland County bit off a bit more than they could chew. Think about it, they could have already been using the MPSCS system. Oh well they will learn. I hope the firefighters are ready for a lot of missed messages(actually I pray that that never ever happens) but it will and the fire departments will pull out and probably go MPSCS

I wonder if the Residence actually know how much money Oakland County has wasted that was theirs??
The "stated reason for not going with the state system is:
The MPSCS was evaluated. The MPSCS, which was designed for mobile only coverage, did not meet the in-building coverage requirements without an extensive addition of tower sites and frequencies. The State required that the County turn all frequencies over to them, with a promise that they would be returned should the County ever leave the MPSCS. However, once the frequencies are licensed by the State and reused throughout their network, there would be very little likelihood of returning them. Coupled with the user fees that the State required, and connectivity issues for the dispatch centers, this option was eliminated, and the County rejected the State's proposal.
This is the link to the entire FAQ
The only good thing is that it will help my 401K as this is a Tyco company. Maybe each city will get a $6k shower curtain with each sale!
 

seamusg

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The only info I have on interconnecting the systems is:
Part of the grant that Warren received (about $1 million) was for Oakland to put in a "gateway" that would allow cross communications from Warren, Macomb, The State and Oakland so yes. What is unclear is exactly how its going to work at this point. Meanwhile Warren has added talkgroups "Oakland" and "Macomb" and others to their system that will be available to surrounding communities. There is some politics and "personalities" at play as well...
 
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pjbracing

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As far as the Oakland County Open Sky system, it is probably like their traffic light experiment they call Fastrac. That signal light system is based on a vehicle stopped at a light, then deciding if it wants to give it a green light based on who knows what algorymthm. It is the old story of the emporer with no clothes!
So if Fastrac is just Half Fast, Open Sky is in the clouds!
Why would the county want to change everything from their current system that works just fine now to a system that might work at great expense. Besides, linking the fire departments to the Michigan Digital System makes more sense and would be much more cost effective.
 

toydriver_det

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pjbracing said:
As far as the Oakland County Open Sky system, it is probably like their traffic light experiment they call Fastrac. .....
Why would the county want to change everything from their current system that works just fine now to a system that might work at great expense. Besides, linking the fire departments to the Michigan Digital System makes more sense and would be much more cost effective.
Like I posted above the stated reasons are listed in their FAQ (http://www.co.oakland.mi.us/radio/faq/) . Cost wise it does not matter too much because this is going to be a countywide system (if they ever get it to work) and the number of times anyone in Oakland County talks with another county via intercity can be counted on one hand. The telephone is used more than the radio for that. The county is committed to OpenSky and it is too late to turn back. All we can hope for is that it works better than the MDT's in the last few days. In the last week I have heard at least twenty radio calls with problems with the MDT's of one type or another. of course if the county was on the new system already we would have no way of knowing that or anything else.
Maybe when you are dealing with life safety issues a simple VHF/UHF non-computer based system is the least trouble, most reliable, and all around best system to have.
 

ffexpCP

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toydriver_det said:
Maybe when you are dealing with life safety issues a simple VHF/UHF non-computer based system is the least trouble, most reliable, and all around best system to have.


That's why analog simplex is required by NFPA.
 

seamusg

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toydriver_det said:
Like I posted above the stated reasons are listed in their FAQ (http://www.co.oakland.mi.us/radio/faq/) . Cost wise it does not matter too much because this is going to be a countywide system (if they ever get it to work) and the number of times anyone in Oakland County talks with another county via intercity can be counted on one hand. The telephone is used more than the radio for that. The county is committed to OpenSky and it is too late to turn back. All we can hope for is that it works better than the MDT's in the last few days. In the last week I have heard at least twenty radio calls with problems with the MDT's of one type or another. of course if the county was on the new system already we would have no way of knowing that or anything else.
Maybe when you are dealing with life safety issues a simple VHF/UHF non-computer based system is the least trouble, most reliable, and all around best system to have.
This thread was not about Oakland, but about Warren's new system, also Warren's MDT's are on CLEMIS.
 
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